Should you be able to dodge a fireball by readying an action?

[Hypersmurf]

The wizard can use the ray to make an attack, but the attack isn't actually an effect of the spell -- it's merely the use of the spell's effect. In this case, I'd posit that the spell effect must exist before it can be used for an attack -- and there's the interval where the PC's readied action ("run when attacked") could go off -- because the attack isn't strictly part of the spell.

The attack is integral to the spell. You can't cast Scorching Ray without attacking with it. The attack is how the spell comes into effect.

In the case of fireball, note that the same principle could apply, thanks to this bit: "If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must 'hit' the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely."

But again, they aren't discrete events. Sending the bead to the point of origin is how Fireball comes into effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

The attack is integral to the spell. You can't cast Scorching Ray without attacking with it. The attack is how the spell comes into effect.

Sure you can. You could execute a Coup-de-Grace with a scorching ray -- no attack roll in that.

How can you reconcile a hardline "decisions-at-casting" stance with the Holding the Charge rules? Touch spells grant you an attack just like ray spells do, but the attack is not integral to the spell -- you can cast the spell, then move & deliver the effect, despite the spells being instantaneous and having a target entry (which means you must choose a target at casting, yes?).

Clearly, targeting is not a decision which must be made when the spell comes into effect for Touch spells.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure you can. You could execute a Coup-de-Grace with a scorching ray...

How? It isn't a melee weapon, a bow, or a crossbow.

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

Yep, no way to CDG with a spell unless it actually can be used as a melee weapon, a bow, or a crossbow.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Rules Compendium answers some of these questions.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, you must specify what you want to do and the conditions under which you will do so. Then, any time before your next turn, you can take the readied action in response to those conditions. The action occurs just before whatever triggered it. If the triggering condition is part of another creature's activities, you interrupt that creature's turn. Assuming the interrupted creature is still capable of doing so, it continues its turn once you complete your readied action...you act immediately before any creature whose activities triggered your readied action...

I don't see how the rewording in Rules Compendium changes things, in regards to RW's specific example.

Readying to move "when the bead appears" is the same as readying to move "after he makes his attack roll, but before he rolls damage/before the blow lands". That particular instant of time simply doesn't exist in the D&D game. In the real world, it'd be like trying to run 30 feet "after a person initiates a blink, but before his eyelids meet". It can't be done.

Sure, you can ready to do something "if he attacks". Just like you can ready "if he casts a spell". But in both cases, you pre-empt the entire action. You can't ready to do something that interrupts an action already in motion.

You could ready to drop to the ground if an archer attacks you, but you can't dodge an arrow already in flight. Once the attack die hits the table, you have to resolve the entire attack.

You could ready to move if a wizard casts a fireball at you, but you can't dodge a spell that's already been cast. Once the spell is cast, you have to resolve the entire spell.

Again, this thread is in the rules forum so this is all from a RAW standpoint. By all means, feel free to houserule for dramatic effect or post this thread in the houserules forum. This particular forum is specifically for rules lawyers.

-z

PS: For fireball, yes the bead streaks from point A to point B. But the duration of the spell is "instantaneous". As far as the game is concerned, it literally takes zero time for the bead to travel. Put in "real world" terms, the travel time of a fireball bead is faster than the speed of light. So fast, it's impossible to measure. Impossibly fast. Call it what you will. Yes there is motion, but the motion takes no time at all, and cannot be dodged.

 

[Thurbane]

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything relating to whether you can intercept a fireball with an arrow. Spell duration only refers to the length of time the magic of the spell is in effect. The fact that fireball is instantaneous just means it can't be dispelled once it's been cast. It doesn't have anything to do with how long it takes the bead to travel. In support: wall of stone is also instantaneous. Does that mean you cannot shoot an arrow at it? Why then does it have specific rules for how you damage it?

Oh yeah, in addition: Arrows are actually faster than fireballs in D&D terms. A level 6 archer can fire two arrows 1100 feet in 3 seconds. A level 6 wizard can only shoot a fireball 640 feet in the same 3 seconds.

Thats an...interesting interpretation.

 

[Zurai]

PS: For fireball, yes the bead streaks from point A to point B. But the duration of the spell is "instantaneous". As far as the game is concerned, it literally takes zero time for the bead to travel. Put in "real world" terms, the travel time of a fireball bead is faster than the speed of light. So fast, it's impossible to measure. Impossibly fast. Call it what you will. Yes there is motion, but the motion takes no time at all, and cannot be dodged.

Again, the duration being instantaneous has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Wall of Stone is also instantaneous, yet you can interact with it once it's been cast.

 

[Nifft]

How? It isn't a melee weapon, a bow, or a crossbow.

D'oh! That's right. I was already looking at touch spells and weaponlike rules.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Zaruthustran]

Again, the duration being instantaneous has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Wall of Stone is also instantaneous, yet you can interact with it once it's been cast.

You're absolutely correct. Poor choice of words on my part. Duration and instantaneous have specific game mechanic connotations.

My point is that the effect of the spell is instant/instantaneous. It takes zero time for the bead to emerge, travel, and detonate.

 

[Zurai]

My point is that the effect of the spell is instant/instantaneous. It takes zero time for the bead to emerge, travel, and detonate.

That is debatable, but it's a reasonable ruling, yes.