Should you be able to dodge a fireball by readying an action?

[Nifft]

You can only trigger a ready action off something you can perceive.

I can't tell someone "Think of a number" and ready an action to attack them if the number they think of is 7.

So while you can trigger a ready action off "He casts Fireball" - which you can determine with a spellcraft check before the action is complete - you can't trigger a ready action off a specific point of origin, because by the time the point of origin is determined, the spell has already come into effect. It's too late.

Sorry, but if that's your argument, you're in the wrong here.

Perception is clearly handled in the case of attacks -- which is why I keep coming back to them, they're well specified in the rules. Perception is handled by regular AC vs. flat-footed AC.

If I'm not flat-footed, I perceive and react to the attack in a way that makes me harder to hit (assuming positive Dex modifier and/or Dodge bonuses). I don't need to make any Spellcraft checks to dodge a scorching ray.

I'm aware of the attack, and I've got a readied action to move behind cover if attacked. The Wizard declares an attack (with one ray of a scorching ray spell). Does the attack happen?

Cheers, -- N

PS: If it's not clear, I say the attack does happen. Here's the order of events in my interpretation:

1/ PC readies action; declares triggering event and his readied action.
2/ Wizard declares attack.
3/ PC's readied action is triggered; he ducks behind cover.
4/ This passage of the SRD comes into play:

The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

I read this to mean that the Wizard continues the same action that he had declared, then may do whatever he wishes with the rest of his actions (as usual).
5/ In this case, the Wizard was casting a spell, so he still does so. The ray targeting the PC hits cover.
6/ For the rest of combat, the PC's initiative is immediately before the Wizard.

 

[Mistwell]

Originally Posted by SRD
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

Except that is not the rule anymore.

 

[RangerWickett]

time travel.

I know I feel like I'm stuck in a recursive time loop.

Okay, I think I've pinned down the problem. We're debating #2 in the logical argument: when is the spell complete?

Ignoring game mechanics for a bit, what is going on narratively here?

A. "Fireball, I invoke thee!" the wizard shouts, completing the ritual necessary to cast his spell. A pea-sized bead of fire streaks from his hand toward his intended target.

or

B. "Fireball, I invoke thee!" the wizard shouts, and a pea-sized bead of fire streaks from his hand. He continues to concentrate on the spell, directing its course until the moment it strikes.

I think I and Nifft are interpreting fireball as working like option A. You seem to be saying it's option B.

I think Nifft is saying that he readies an action of "When I see a fireball bead, I will move away from my current spot." In his mind, the wizard has finished casting the spell when that fireball bead appears, and thus its target has already been chosen. In that view of fireball, it makes sense that you can dodge it.

If instead we use your view, Hyp, if you ready an action to move when you see the fireball bead, you can do that, but it won't help, because the spell is still under control of the caster until the moment it strikes. Is that right by your view?

 

[Hypersmurf]

4/ This passage of the SRD comes into play: I read this to mean that the Wizard continues the same action that he had declared, then may do whatever he wishes with the rest of his actions (as usual).
5/ In this case, the Wizard was casting a spell, so he still does so.

Right. He finishes casting the spell, the spell comes into effect, and at that point, he makes all pertinent decisions about the spell.

The ray targeting the PC hits cover.

If that's where he decides to aim it at the time he makes all pertinent decisions, certainly.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

Except that is not the rule anymore.

When did you buy me a Rules Compendium? :\

I'll try to re-phrase with a quote from your post. You did put all relevant text in it, right?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

If instead we use your view, Hyp, if you ready an action to move when you see the fireball bead, you can do that, but it won't help, because the spell is still under control of the caster until the moment it strikes. Is that right by your view?

No, not at all; once the spell comes into effect, the decision is made; the caster can't change his mind once the spell is already in effect.

I'm saying that if you leave it that long before you try to move, it's already too late.

Once there's a bead, the fireball is going off. Before there's a bead, the caster hasn't decided where it's going to happen; after there's a bead, it's too late to move.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

Right. He finishes casting the spell, the spell comes into effect, and at that point, he makes all pertinent decisions about the spell.

I notice you chopped off the half of my post in which it was shown that he had already made a decision about the spell.

Specifically, a decision which was the trigger for the readied action.

A trigger event that has perception rules clearly spelled out ("an attack").

A trigger event which has a non-magical analogue ("melee attack with a weapon").

I don't think there's much wiggle room here, and I don't think repeating that sentence is helping your case.

Cheers, -- N

 

[RangerWickett]

No, not at all; once the spell comes into effect, the decision is made; the caster can't change his mind once the spell is already in effect.

I'm saying that if you leave it that long before you try to move, it's already too late.

Once there's a bead, the fireball is going off. Before there's a bead, the caster hasn't decided where it's going to happen; after there's a bead, it's too late to move.

-Hyp.

Really? Once there's a bead, the fireball is going off? Let us compare that with the text of the spell (from d20srd.org).

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

You determine the targeted area, and then the spell streaks from your finger. 'Streak' implies motion, and motion requires time.

There certainly seems to be a moment when there is a bead but there is not a fireball.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You determine the targeted area, and then the spell streaks from your finger. 'Streak' implies motion, and motion requires time.

You said earlier: "If it were flame strike, I wouldn't have a problem with the ruling, because that spell creates a pillar of fire right where you target it."

Given that A flame strike produces a vertical column of divine fire roaring downward... doesn't 'downward' imply motion? If you can't dodge the instantaneous Flame Strike, why would you be able to dodge the instantaneous Fireball?

I notice you chopped off the half of my post in which it was shown that he had already made a decision about the spell.

If he's already made the decision, the spell has already come into effect, and it's too late to dodge before he finishes casting.

If you dodge before he finishes casting, he hasn't made his decision, because the spell has yet to come into effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

If he's already made the decision, the spell has already come into effect, and it's too late to dodge before he finishes casting.

If you dodge before he finishes casting, he hasn't made his decision, because the spell has yet to come into effect.

Well, like I said before, you can repeat that until you're blue in the ... wait a second!

, -- N