Sigil is in the DMG!

[Mighty Veil]

Too bad. Planescape ruin the Great Wheel of planes.

 

[Reaper Steve]

While I am not excited to hear about Sigil appearing in 4E (it seems very not-PoL to me) what I really dislike is how it got there:
The editor forced it in... and said as much. This tells me that James Wyatt (whom I have tremendous respect for as the story guy) did not see a place or need for it, but had to put it in at the insistence of his editor. W&M implies that the City of Brass serves the purpose of Sigil in 4E.

Now, if 4E does with Sigil as it does most other things--retain the core concept and then completely rebuild the execution(which I like), then having a location that has doors to other dominions can work. Note I did not say 'a city that has doors to other dominions--an extraplanar cosmopolitan metropolis would be a huge black mark on the new-and-much-improved 4E cosmology and overall PoL concept, IMO.

i can see Sigil as a bleak, almost deserted maze-ish place. No one goes there if there is any other alternative. When there, the goal is getting in and finding a way out (but hopefully the way you want) before the Lady of Pain (or her minions) becomes aware of your presence. If you are discovered, it may be best to take your chances with the nearest door rather than face the Lady.

 

[Relique du Madde]

This, this right here, is why I hate Planescape: the arrogant condescending attitude of Planescape players towards everyone else around them at all times.

Relax. As many have pointed out I was only referencing the setting's tone, which unfortunately is somewhat condescendingly arrogant and insulting as a result of it being written during a time when a product having an "edgy," "ground-breaking," and "controversial" tone/style often equated to it being written in an tone that was stilted, insulting, or as confrontational in tone as possible. Sure, tone and style wise, Planscape was not everyone's cup of tea but considering that TSR's largest RPG rival at the time was White Wolf, its not too difficult to foresee the attitude that PlaneScape would adopt.

In truth, if anyone is to blame for the perceived arrogance of Planescape's fans, you should blame the book's authors and not not their fans themselves because it it hard NOT to play a Sigilian character without adopting their attitude (which would have been completey different if many of the fPlanescape books were written in a neutral and unconfrontational tone).

 

[Steely Dan]

The Lady of Pain was defined to be some sort of vague ineffable thing, an "unsolvable mystery" that absolutely nobody and nothing can stop, a deus-ex machina that is cool because it's never defined.

Not really, she is merely a crystallization of the vibe of Planescape.

 

[kenmarable]

I also hated this. Planescape had a style that didn't fit every campaign world, but yet ended up using the "default cosmology" of the Outer Planes, thus it was "official" for every campaign world. I felt Planescape's style was then forced on Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms (and even more planes)--the outer planes were what PS made them. It was irritating, and it was part of 2nd Ed TSR's ill-themed plan to tie in all campaign settings together.

Uh... that cosmology started with Greyhawk. Planescape came years later. I'm thinking at least the Forgotten Realms was officially using it long before Planescape was around as well, but I'd have to look at my old books to see how much of cosmology it talked about. Dunno enough about Dragonlance to comment. But saying that they forced the Planescape cosmology onto Greyhawk has it utterly backwards.

Who says it has to be floating anywhere? Or that anyone knows where it is within any larger plane? People happen to wander in through portals, and exit via portals, but beyond the edge of the ring they simply see... Nothingness...

It'd be awesome if it's a location without a location, and a persistant mystery as to just where it is.

Maybe the walls (and floors) of Sigil keep the vestiges out?

 

[Mercule]

Who says it has to be floating anywhere? Or that anyone knows where it is within any larger plane? People happen to wander in through portals, and exit via portals, but beyond the edge of the ring they simply see... Nothingness...

It'd be awesome if it's a location without a location, and a persistant mystery as to just where it is.

I've never really cared for Sigil (or most of PS), but turning it into a truly independent city might actually make it work for me. I doubt I'd ever do too much with it, but I'm warmer to that idea than the "center of the wheel" idea.

 

[Steely Dan]

Dunno enough about Dragonlance to comment.

What the people of Krynn call the Abyss, is actually the first plane of hell (Avernus) and Takhisis is just Tiamat who holds a lot of sway over Krynnspace.

 

[Nymrohd]

The City of Brass by the way has always had a very large number of portals in itself. And a recent Forgotten Realms novel had the characters trying to reach a portal in it, which might be foreshadowing of its new "Planar Metropolis" status. And yes from the varous planar metropoli we have had in D&D the City of Brass seems to fit the concept setting of 4E best.
Stripping Sigil of the Planescape feel would be pointless. Better skip it altogether if that is the plan.

 

[Michele Carter]

While I am not excited to hear about Sigil appearing in 4E (it seems very not-PoL to me) what I really dislike is how it got there:
The editor forced it in... and said as much. This tells me that James Wyatt (whom I have tremendous respect for as the story guy) did not see a place or need for it, but had to put it in at the insistence of his editor.

I'm flattered that you think I have the power to "force" anything into 4th Edition.

We work as a team. Some concepts have specific advocates, but I can assure you that if the rest of the D&D team had not agreed that Sigil had a place in the new cosmology, it would not have been in. I brought it up; we discussed it; it went in. The "whining" on my part was in getting the material from the much-overworked James, who has a hundred other things on his plate at any given moment. See: editor, definition of, as collection agency/traffic cop.

No one has more respect for James than me, and I promise you, nothing's going into any book against his will.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Uh... that cosmology started with Greyhawk. Planescape came years later. I'm thinking at least the Forgotten Realms was officially using it long before Planescape was around as well, but I'd have to look at my old books to see how much of cosmology it talked about. Dunno enough about Dragonlance to comment. But saying that they forced the Planescape cosmology onto Greyhawk has it utterly backwards.

By cosmology I meant general attitude and the like, not the "great wheel" setup. Planescape made changes to races and planes in the "classic wheel" setup that some Greyhawk and FR fans disliked. The "Planescape feel" was forced on those campaign worlds as a result. That's what I meant by cosmology. ,