Silence

[AuraSeer]

If its not placed directly on the mage there's no save, no SR...don't you think that this is a bit too powerful for a second level spell? It makes almost all spellcasting impossible since very few wizards memorize that many silenced spells.

You're looking at it backward. If magical silence has any significant impact on the campaign, spellcasters will prepare many Silent spells. If they don't use the Silent Spell feat, obviously they're not worried about being silenced.

And the mage doesn't know where exactly the silence ends; he'd have to spend at least an standard action to make a listen check to be sure that he's out.

That's a house rule, and a pretty harsh one at that. It should be totally obvious when a character has reached the edge of the silence. Just keep walking until you can hear your footsteps-- or the noise of the combat happening all around you.

 

[AuraSeer]

And even if you do: the silence will effectively buy its caster the initiative in the fight because the enemy must react (with dispel) and the silence-caster will then be able act HIS way.

That's nonsense. If the enemy is able to cast silence, he has initiative anyway.

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

That's nonsense. If the enemy is able to cast silence, he has initiative anyway.

No.
Situation: Enemy (E) has won Init against Player (P).
Round 1: E acts as it pleases him (-> E ist sculpting the fight) ; P casts silence
Round 2: E HAS to dispel the silence (assuming he can't safely move out which is very likely the case in a dungeon); now P can act as it pleases him! (-> now P's in charge!)


From the SRD:

Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action.

Moving out of the silence + realizing that you're out = one round worth of actions...

This "realizing" includes acknowledging that he is in a silence at all, guessing the area of effect, looking for the nearest spot outside, figuring out the best way to get there (around tables or other obstacles) and finally checking that he IS indeed out. It may be a house rule, but I think that all this together is not a "free" action any more.

 

[takyris]

Ah, the great D&D arms race.

Cleric: Okay, I cast Silence on my Shield and charge toward the enemy wizard!

Enemy Wizard: Hah, sucker. I've got a Minor Globe of Invulnerability up. I can cast spells all day.

Enemy Cleric: And I've got Spell Immunity:Silence, effectively giving me unbeatable SR against that spell. So what are you gonna do?

Cleric: Wait for my buddy the wizard to cast the first of his many memorized sonic-substituted cone-of-colds (which affects the wizard, since cone of cold goes right through his minor globe, and since it's sonic, it only hits that sphere) and then use a silent Dispel to remove your Spell Immunity.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Hi!
No.
Situation: Enemy (E) has won Init against Player (P).
Round 1: E acts as it pleases him (-> E ist sculpting the fight) ; P casts silence
Round 2: E HAS to dispel the silence (assuming he can't safely move out which is very likely the case in a dungeon); now P can act as it pleases him! (-> now P's in charge!)

P casts silence and then E does something to get out of the silence. In the end, they both used up a single action and are back where they started.
R1: P casts a spell
R2: E casts silence
R3: P dispels silence
R4: E casts a spell

If you take out the entire silence portion, E never got an extra anything out of it.

Moving out of the silence + realizing that you're out = one round worth of actions...

This "realizing" includes acknowledging that he is in a silence at all, guessing the area of effect, looking for the nearest spot outside, figuring out the best way to get there (around tables or other obstacles) and finally checking that he IS indeed out. It may be a house rule, but I think that all this together is not a "free" action any more.

You're right, that's a Move Action, not a free action. The caster in question still has a Standard Action left.

 

[Pax]

Hi!

If its not placed directly on the mage there's no save, no SR...don't you think that this is a bit too powerful for a second level spell? It makes almost all spellcasting impossible since very few wizards memorize that many silenced spells.

Silence stops sound within it's area. It doesn't prevent the wizard from simply walking away ... right out of the silence, and into a spot where he can cast spells again.

 

[Nail]

The spell seems quite clear: if you are not the target of the spell, you do not get a saving throw, even if you happen to be in the area of effect.

Situation: Enemy (E) has won Init against Player (P).
Round 1: E acts as it pleases him (-> E ist sculpting the fight) ; P casts silence
Round 2: E HAS to dispel the silence (assuming he can't safely move out which is very likely the case in a dungeon); now P can act as it pleases him! (-> now P's in charge!)

This is highly situationally dependent. (I'm kinda surprised we're even discussing it.) Often, during the beginning rounds of combat, the enemy mage has lots of room to manuever.....that silence spell will make him move, but won't make him waste his entire round dealing with the problem. Since the enemy wizard can move, then cast, that's exactly what he'll do.

If, OTOH, the wizard is restricted in his movement, like surrounded by goons or prtections...then this is an excellent idea.

Moving out of the silence + realizing that you're out = one round worth of actions...

Wow.

That's not only very harsh, but factually untrue. (A straw man, even.) As long as you have hearing, you are instantly aware there is no sound were you are...there's a battle going on, after all, so you move a short distance until you can hear again. No Listen check is required.

So: Move action (out of silence radius) => Standard action (cast spell)

 

[AuraSeer]

Kodam, your example doesn't hold together. If P spends an action to cast silence, and E spends a whole round un-silencing himself (by moving or dispelling), the whole thing is a wash. We're back to P's turn again, and neither spell had any significant effect.

This "realizing" includes acknowledging that he is in a silence at all, guessing the area of effect, looking for the nearest spot outside, figuring out the best way to get there (around tables or other obstacles) and finally checking that he IS indeed out.

It's far simpler than you make it out to be. The victim doesn't need to calculate the area or search for the exact edge; all he has to do is move in a straight line until he can hear something. He need not even attempt a Listen check to hear his breathing, or the air moving past his ears, or any of the zillion other sounds a moving being necessarily makes.

If I know there's a goblin just around the next corner, I can "move forward until I have line of sight to the goblin, then cast magic missile." That is clearly doable in one round, and it is no less complex than "move to my left until I can hear again, then cast magic missile."

 

[FrankTrollman]

So Silence has a side effect from another school. That doesn't mean its primary effect doesn't belong in the Illusion school.

Absolutely not. It may be an Evocation that has some side effects of the Illusion school - but no way no how can it be a Glamer at all.

Glamers have a set of rules that apply to them - namely that they can't prevent damage - since Silence can prevent damage from a Shout spell - it can't follow the rules of Glamers and thus can't be one.

An Abjuration has the rules that if it is close to other abjuration effects it causes field distortion which make them all easier to detect. Nothing Silence does makes it incapable of doing that, so it could be an Abjuration.

But if we are using the 3rd edition Darkness (the 3.5 Darkness actually creates light - so I'll just ignore that one as the insult that it is) - where it completely nullifies all light and stops all Lazers that don't dispel it (from Lantern Archons, for example) - the Silence effects are exactly the same - only with Light instead of with Noise (and no rules for Sonic effects dispelling it, which makes it a more powerful spell over all). The rules pertaining to Evocations could apply to Silence, so it is a possible school. There are other spells in the Evocation school that function just like Silence - making it a likely school.

The possible answers include Transmutation, Evocation, and Abjuration. Personally, I find the Evocation argument most persuasive. Illusion is completely impossible, and cannot be considered.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

Glamers have a set of rules that apply to them - namely that they can't prevent damage...

Source?

"They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements."

Nothing about preventing energy damage, unless it results from "the elements".

... which the Shout spell doesn't.

-Hyp.