sneak attack with ranged attack?

[RigaMortus]

Except, of course, that the rogue is smart and is holding the wand in one hand, with his rapier in the other.

Which is fine, the Rogue is threatening the opponent with his Rapier and the Fighter gets his +2 to hit for flanking. When it comes time for the Rogue to attack, whether or not he gets a Sneak Attack will depend on what weapon he uses. If he uses a melee weapon that he threatens with (such as the Rapier) he will get Sneak Attack. If he makes a ranged attack with a ranged weapon (such as with the wand), he does not threaten with it, and therefore does not get Sneak Attack. They type of attack you do defines the type of weapon you are using at the time of the attack. If you stab with a dagger (and thus make a melee attack roll) you are using a melee weapon. If you throw your dagger (and thus make a ranged attack roll), you aure using the dagger as a ranged weapon. Same with spells. Same with wands.

Not true. The rogue is not making a "ranged attack" - which is a specific subset of the standard Attack action.

Rather, he is using Activate Magic Item standard action - and, specifically, the Activate Spell Trigger Item - which, also specifically, does not provoke an AoO. The fact that it involves a ranged attack roll is incidental.

Well that proves my point even more. You only get Sneak Attack when attacking with a melee weapon you threaten with. You do not get Sneak Attack when you use the Activate Magic Item standard action.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Which is fine, the Rogue is threatening the opponent with his Rapier and the Fighter gets his +2 to hit for flanking. When it comes time for the Rogue to attack, whether or not he gets a Sneak Attack will depend on what weapon he uses.

That is your own interpretation (and is probably even correct), however it is not specifically backed up by the rules as written (at least, not as they are presented in the SRD).

Specfically, read the rules I quoted above.

A quick summary:

1. A rogue may make a sneak attack whenever his opponent is denied his or her or its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (even if it doesn't have one) or when the rogue is flanking the opponent.

2. The rules for flanking specify:
A. That you get a +2 flanking bonus on your attack roll when making a melee attack while flanking
B. You are flanking when "your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner"

3. The rules for flanking do not specify that:
A. You must be wielding a melee weapon in order to flank yourself (you must, however, threaten in order to provide a flanking bonus to others);
B. You must make a melee attack in order to flank
C. You must make any attacks at all in order to provide any flanking bonuses

Therefore, if I am standing next to the troll and across from my warrior friend, I am flanking him.

Because the Sneak Attack rules do not specify that you must use a melee attack in order to make a Sneak Attack (in fact, it merely states that ranged attacks must be made within 30' in order to be a Sneak Attack), any attack made while flanking is a Sneak Attack.

Therfore, the only set of rules that can possibly rule this interpretation out are the rules on flanking. And, as I've pointed out, the only thing flanking has to say on the matter is that the +2 flanking bonus to attack rolls only applies to melee attacks.

So, unless the SRD dropped / changed the rules that state that you are only considered to be flanking a target when making a melee attack (and not merely that the bonus to attack rolls only applies when making a melee attack roll), then there is no RAW reason to deny the wand-wielding rogue his Sneak Attack.

Well that proves my point even more. You only get Sneak Attack when attacking with a melee weapon you threaten with.

So sayeth you. Prove it, sir!

You do not get Sneak Attack when you use the Activate Magic Item standard action.

Ah ah ah! There is the exception to that particular rule that states that activating a spell trigger item is the same as casting the spell with some exceptions (chiefly, no AoO for doing so). Under the casting a spell desciption, it describes which spells are eligble to do sneak attack damage, even though they aren't Melee or Ranged attacks using the Attack standard action.

 

[mikebr99]

You do not get Sneak Attack when you use the Activate Magic Item standard action.

You could use the "sniping" mechanic (3.5, see hide skill) with a spell or wand, that requires an attack roll, and does damage... from a hidden position... to SA from range.


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

FYI... on flanking, from RoTG - Sneak Attacks:

​

Creatures become susceptible to sneak attacks when flanked because they must divide their attention between two or more opponents whose relative positions make it difficult to block or dodge their attacks. The situation is something like dealing with an unseen foe, but isn't quite as severe.
​

To flank an opponent, two allies must be on opposite sides of that opponent, and they both must threaten the opponent (Chapter 8 in the Player's Handbook has some handy diagrams that explain flanking). You threaten an opponent when you can make an armed melee attack against that opponent. You're "armed" when you use a manufactured weapon, natural weapon, the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, or the monk's unarmed strike ability. You don't actually have to have a weapon that can hurt an opponent to threaten that opponent. If you and your buddy have no silver weapons but find yourselves on opposites sides of a werewolf, you still flank the werewolf (but see the final section of this article series).
​

You can flank with any melee weapon, including a reach weapon, but you cannot flank with a ranged weapon.
​

You get a flanking bonus from any ally your foe can see (and who is in the correct position to flank). If your foe can't see you, you don't provide a flanking bonus to any ally. You literally cannot flank a blind creature; however, a blind creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against your attacks (so you can sneak attack it), and you get a +2 to attack it to boot. Creatures with the blindsight ability effectively "see" within blindsight range and can be flanked.
​

​

​

Mike

 

[Hypersmurf]

Because the Sneak Attack rules do not specify that you must use a melee attack in order to make a Sneak Attack (in fact, it merely states that ranged attacks must be made within 30' in order to be a Sneak Attack), any attack made while flanking is a Sneak Attack.

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So, your interpretation is that since a line traced between me and the dwarf passes through opposite sides of the goblin's square, we are flanking the goblin. The dwarf doesn't threaten him, and I'm not making a melee attack, so I can't get a +2 bonus... but sneak attack still applies, because the flanking bonus is not necessary for the flanking condition?

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sorry, Hyp. My Nethack skills are weak. You'll have to be a bit clearer.

I'll guess, however.

I assume that the @ is the rogue archer, and that the O is the goblin. Likewise, the dwarf is H.

In this case, no, you wouldn't be flanking him, because the dwarf does not threaten the goblin - which is required for the flanking condition:

if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

Likewise, the dwarf does not get a flanking bonus on his attack roll on his turn, because you do not threaten the goblin.

Hey, I agree that it seems incorrect, but then the rules are known for having loopholes.

Do you have the actual 3.X PHB or DMG? I'm limited to the SRD at work.

Again, however, it doesn't matter with regards to the initial question.

If the rogue's got his rapier in one hand, and the wand in the other, he's:

1. Threatening
2. Flanking

So, he's flanking while he's standing there drinking a potion, flanking while he's throwing daggers across the room, flanking while the fighter's drinking a potion, flanking while the fighter is throwing daggers across the room, but not when he points a wand at the goblin and fires?

It seems a bit strange.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In this case, no, you wouldn't be flanking him, because the dwarf does not threaten the goblin - which is required for the flanking condition:

Read it again. You yourself said that that line only applies to whether or not you receive the +2 bonus.

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

You said that you can sneak attack with the wand of acid splash, because "when making a melee attack" only determines whether you get the +2 bonus. But if that's true, then "if your opponent is threatened by a character" also only determines whether you get the +2 bonus.

We trace an imaginary line between me and the dwarf, and it passes through the opponent's space. Either that means the two friendly characters flank the opponent... or we must also satisfy the conditions in the previous paragraph (the dwarf threatens, and I am making a melee attack).

You can't claim that one condition from that sentence applies to the bonus only, but the other applies to flanking in general. Both or neither.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the rogue's got his rapier in one hand, and the wand in the other, he's:

1. Threatening
2. Flanking

So, he's flanking while he's standing there drinking a potion, flanking while he's throwing daggers across the room, flanking while the fighter's drinking a potion, flanking while the fighter is throwing daggers across the room, but not when he points a wand at the goblin and fires?

I don't agree at all. He's not flanking in any of those circumstances.

He's flanking when he makes an attack with his rapier, and he's flanking (as the friendly creature providing the bonus) when the fighter attacks with his longsword. At any other moment, he isn't flanking.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

if my rogue is in melee and is flanking a flankable say troll, and wants to use his wand of acid splash to do sneak attack damage to the troll, can he?

No. With a wand, you do not count as "threatening", and therefore do not flank or enable sneak attacks. Melee weapons only for that.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. With a wand, you do not count as "threatening", and therefore do not flank or enable sneak attacks. Melee weapons only for that.

You don't need to be threatening - you can flank and make a sneak attack with a whip or an unarmed strike even though you don't threaten - as long as your ally is threatening. What you need to be doing is making a melee attack.

Your ally doesn't need to be wielding a melee weapon, but he does need to threaten. For example, a Peerless Archer 8 can grant a flanking bonus to an ally with his bow, since he threatens at 10 feet with it. However, he cannot gain a flanking bonus with his bow, since he can't make a melee attack with it.

-Hyp.