D&D 5E Sneak Attack with spells?

[lingual]

A first level spell (Find Familiar) is not meant to grant auto-advantage with no repurcussions. It would be a very OP spell then. As a player, I would expect an enemy to eventually target my familiar if it was constantly inhibiting his or her combat defenses. Any sane enemy would.

Smart enemies like some dragon or enemy bladesinger, arcane trickster could very well target the familiar first because they would know of this tactic and know that killing the familiar would be the most effective thing to do. A smart player would do the same. So a smart monster would too. The fact that most players would NOT want their advantage-granting pet targeted makes it a smart move. A dumb ogre would probably catch on after getting thwacked a few times.

 

[ECMO3]

Smart enemies like some dragon or enemy bladesinger, arcane trickster could very well target the familiar first because they would know of this tactic and know that killing the familiar would be the most effective thing to do. A smart player would do the same. So a smart monster would too. The fact that most players would NOT want their advantage-granting pet targeted makes it a smart move. A dumb ogre would probably catch on after getting thwacked a few times.

One DM I play with targets familiars first all the time with intelligent monsters. As a player it sometimes feels metagamey, but they kill the familiar in one shot so in retrospect, why wouldn't they?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

This is complete nonsense, they know they are being distracted and the enemy is hitting them for vital damage, a lot more than his dagger typically would.

Reverse the situation and as DM describe in game what is happening to the players. Do you think they won't understand what is going on?

Precisely. Hence why I made that previous distinction.

They can't beat them as long as they live. Everyone needs to die in order for the monsters to win. If you refuse to actually kill someone that will never happen.

They are a current threat until they are dead that is the problem. IRL this happens all the time in shootings where shooters (both police and criminals) shoot people that are down multiple times before they move on to others.

If someone is down and not trying to kill you while a couple of other people are actively swinging at you, the downed person is not a current threat. Taking down one of the people currently stabbing you will generally have priority.

This isn't a gunfight where you're firing from cover and can get an angle on one person without exposing yourself to the others. In melee, if you take a swing at one opponent, you're exposing yourself to the others. Are you going to waste that swing and the resulting rist on someone who is bleeding out and not a threat at the moment? Or woulod you use it to try to stop one of the people actively trying to kill you?

An owl is significantly more fragile than an Gelatenous Ice Cube and marginally more fragile than a few others like a Tressym. But to your point, they are all fragile and will be killed by all sorts of things in tier 2, both in combat and out of combat.

I don't recognise either of those examples. Are they common familiar options available through the base spell?

 

[ECMO3]

Precisely. Hence why I made that previous distinction.

If someone is down and not trying to kill you while a couple of other people are actively swinging at you, the downed person is not a current threat. Taking down one of the people currently stabbing you will generally have priority.

But they are trying to kill you. Unless the enemy walked into a room and they were already down they were just trying to kill you and are almost certainly trying to get back in the fight and try to kill you again unless you can do something about it.

The only time people actively stabbing you would have priority was if you were metagaming it and know you could take one of them down this turn. If you can't do that this turn, before the downed enemy gets back in the fight, you will take less damage by killing the enemy that is down. If you can down another this turn then sure, go for a standing enemy, but in most cases, it would be metagaming to know that.

This isn't a gunfight where you're firing from cover and can get an angle on one person without exposing yourself to the others. In melee, if you take a swing at one opponent, you're exposing yourself to the others. Are you going to waste that swing and the resulting rist on someone who is bleeding out and not a threat at the moment? Or woulod you use it to try to stop one of the people actively trying to kill you?

I would try to end a threat, putting someone down does not do that. Killing them does. This happens IRL in "melee" too where someoene gets hit with a bat or stambbed and then the killer hits the guy again while he is on the ground or stabs him a bunch more times.

I don't recognise either of those examples. Are they common familiar options available through the base spell?

They are added on as legal familiars in WOTC campaigns. The Tressym has 5hps I think, which is still very vulnerable, but 4 more hps than an owl. Tressym has a chance with a good save to survive a few low damage AOEs and with a lucky roll might survive a single melee attack from a very low damage enemy. Gelatinous ice cube has I think 18hps, which makes it the tank of familiars.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

But they are trying to kill you. Unless the enemy walked into a room and they were already down they were just trying to kill you and are almost certainly trying to get back in the fight and try to kill you again unless you can do something about it.

We're talking about someone who is incapacitated and dying, if not already dead.
I wouldn't waste a stab on them if I had a couple of other people hitting me, unless I had a really good reason to expect they to become a threat again immediately.

(Of course as a DM, I may know that they are still making death saves, and they have a character with Healing Word in the party, and so if I actually want to kill a character I should attack them while they're making death saves. But that is not the viewpoint of most of the opponents that the DM plays.)

The only time people actively stabbing you would have priority was if you were metagaming it and know you could take one of them down this turn. If you can't do that this turn, before the downed enemy gets back in the fight, you will take less damage by killing the enemy that is down. If you can down another this turn then sure, go for a standing enemy, but in most cases, it would be metagaming to know that.

No, I would regard most creatures as valuing their own life, and probably not aware of the party's capabilities until demonstrated. Expecting a dying creature to do anything other than bleed out or stabilise and be available to be killed at your leisure when the fight is over seems to be logical for most opponents the party face. Unless they had reason to expect them to be getting back up, I'd regard making that assumption rather "metagamey" myself.

I would try to end a threat, putting someone down does not do that. Killing them does. This happens IRL in "melee" too where someoene gets hit with a bat or stambbed and then the killer hits the guy again while he is on the ground or stabs him a bunch more times.

Really? Do you have any solid examples of this happening often?
Hitting someone who is already on the ground is likely if they are still fighting back, or if they were the main threat/target of violence. Hitting an unconscious person and ignoring your other opponents who are currently hitting you is behaviour I would find unusual in a general combat situation.

They are added on as legal familiars in WOTC campaigns. The Tressym has 5hps I think, which is still very vulnerable, but 4 more hps than an owl. Tressym has a chance with a good save to survive a few low damage AOEs and with a lucky roll might survive a single melee attack from a very low damage enemy. Gelatinous ice cube has I think 18hps, which makes it the tank of familiars.

Isn't that specifically a special reward for DMs who ran games at specific event(s)?
Not something that is common even in AL, and likely mostly unheard of outside it.

 

[ECMO3]

We're talking about someone who is incapacitated and dying, if not already dead.
I wouldn't waste a stab on them if I had a couple of other people hitting me, unless I had a really good reason to expect they to become a threat again immediately.

But they will and you do know that. You live in a world where people do this routinely, almost every fight. It is a world where people can go from being actually, completely, dead to alive in 6 seconds and anyone "dying" but not yet "dead" will almost certainly be fighting again in 6 seconds if not finished off first.

It is a world where anyone, including the enemies themselves can go from nearly dead to unharmed by resting for an hour.

This is the world the characters and the enemies are living in and it is silly to think intelligent enemies do not understand this.

No, I would regard most creatures as valuing their own life, and probably not aware of the party's capabilities until demonstrated. Expecting a dying creature to do anything other than bleed out or stabilise and be available to be killed at your leisure when the fight is over seems to be logical for most opponents the party face. Unless they had reason to expect them to be getting back up, I'd regard making that assumption rather "metagamey" myself.

It is not just the party that has these abilities. They are everywhere in this world.

Really? Do you have any solid examples of this happening often?

Yes all the time. The stories are on the ID channel every day where someone comes in, an estranged boyfriend, a home invader a rapist and takes someone down and proceeds to give that person the death blow when he or she is already down and it routinely happens before others are down.

Isn't that specifically a special reward for DMs who ran games at specific event(s)?
Not something that is common even in AL, and likely mostly unheard of outside it.

Well they are in an official WOTC campaign as alternate familiars along with the Al Marge (sp?) and flying Monkeys. I would think that makes them RAW, but I don't know the specific legality regarding that. In AL play I think you have PHB and a certain number of other books. If that campaign was one of those books than it would presumably be allowed. If it wasn't then it would not be.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think I'm sad. Am I reading correctly that a multiclassed rogue/caster (or arcane trickster) can't sneak attack with a ray? Since SA specifies finesse or ranged weapon?

I'm hoping I've missed something, but I fear not...

We house-ruled you can sneak attack with a cantrip if you have the Magical Ambush Arcane Trickster class feature at 9th level. So, it wouldn't help a MC character, but works for the AT.

We like it and haven't had any issues with balance.