Sneak attacking undead and constructs seems wrong

[Ancalagon]

Amy swings her sword, striking Bob hard for 4 damage. He is now injured, more than he would be from 3 damage, but not as much as would be from 5 damage. Further detail is at the discretion of the DM.

You missed the point, perhaps due to the lack of familiarity with 1e. So let's make this 5e and say 10 points of damage. Bob is a rogue.

If Bob is level 1, he's dying - the blow nicked his jugular, partially disemboweled him, whatever. If Bob is level 20, it's a minor injury.

In other words, 10 hp is not the same for everyone.

Only physical things are capable of inflicting HP damage, and only factors which increase the degree of physical trauma will increase the damage done.

Vicious mockery would like to have a word.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[The Crimson Binome]

You missed the point, perhaps due to the lack of familiarity with 1e. So let's make this 5e and say 10 points of damage. Bob is a rogue.

If Bob is level 1, he's dying - the blow nicked his jugular, partially disemboweled him, whatever. If Bob is level 20, it's a minor injury.

In other words, 10 hp is not the same for everyone.

Changing it to 5E misses the point, because the concept of damage changes significantly between 3E and 5E. (It's similar in every edition prior to 3E, while 5E uses a similar model to 4E). In 5E, 10 damage is insufficient to kill Bob outright, which means the damage dealt must be something that can be un-done over the course of a short rest. He might roll a 20 on his next turn, and suddenly be up and fighting, which places a hard cap on how bad he can possibly be hurt.

In earlier editions, 10 damage represents an objective amount of stopping power, and Bob is a person with some objective amount of durability. He can take a blow of a certain amount of force, but if he takes more than that, or if he takes multiple blows in succession, then he's going to be unconscious. Getting hit in a weak point can amplify the effect of the force.

At level 1, Bob is roughly as durable as Glass Joe. Even though he's wearing armor, and that armor prevents him from being cut when someone swings a sword at him, the force that does get through is sufficient to floor him (unless he dodges it, or the blade is deflected by his armor).

At level 20, Bob is roughly as durable as Mike Tyson (or Mr. Dream). He's still wearing armor, because he isn't an idiot, but he can now withstand much greater force before falling unconscious. In all probability, you would have to strike him twenty times before he falls.

At least, that's one model. The most internally consistent model. You also have the proportional wound model, where he only takes 5% of the impact because he's twenty times as skilled at taking a hit, but that has other issues. In either case, though, a hit is a hit, and running out of HP means you've suffered too much physical trauma. Regaining consciousness means reducing the amount of trauma sustained until it is no longer over the critical threshold.

And that's all I'm going to say on that topic, within this thread, because I don't want to de-rail it too much (and the opposition shows no sign of ever conceding).

Vicious mockery would like to have a word.

That was exactly my point, if you go back. Damage in 5E is not like damage in earlier editions. Damage in 5E includes things like Vicious Mockery, or other things that don't impact the body at all. In 5E, psychic is its own damage type. In AD&D, the only way to hurt someone psychically is by disintegrating them, or agitating their molecules until they catch fire.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

"Damage scored to characters or certain monsters is actually not substantially physical - a mere nick or scratch until the last handful of hit points are considered - it is a matter of wearing away the endurance, the luck, the magical protections."

I could keep going on, but you should get the point; from the very beginning, hit points were not considered just meat.

Great, now find where in the actual rules that luck or magical protection is reflected in your HP total. Or more to the point, don't bother looking, because it's not in there. Luck and magical protections are always represented as AC or saving throw bonuses.

What Gygax says HP represent are entirely at odds with what the actual rules of the game tell us that HP represent, and when the reality of the game world is at odds with your perception, that means your perception is incorrect. Even if you're the one who wrote the book.

It's not enough to say that something is true. The actual rules of the game need to support it, or it isn't true, anymore than if you say a dagger is more lethal than a longsword.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[The Crimson Binome]

You can't say something isn't "the rules" when you have just had the rules quoted at you.

The thing you quoted is not a rule, though; it's a description of rules, and an inaccurate description at that. The actual rules are that your HP come from a combination of class level and Con score, and it's a simple interpretation to say that class level corresponds to skill and Con score corresponds to endurance, but there are no luck or magical factors anywhere in that equation. Moreover, where luck and magical factors do appear in the system, they still don't affect your HP total.

It's exactly like saying that the lethality of an axe depends on its size, your strength, and your keen perception. Perception is already a thing in this game. It's usually tied to your Wisdom score in some way. There are many effects which alter your perception, and none of those things impact your axe damage at all. If someone says that perception is a factor in how well an axe works, then they're flat-wrong. Even if it's the core rulebook making the claim.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Dude, if you refuse to accept the terms as they are defined in the core rulebooks - that’s fine! Rock on with your home brew. Just don’t tell the rest of us that your home brew is the actual rule.

Again, not a rule. It's a description of the rules. I describe HP as being a factor of class level and Con score, because if you look at the underlying math, those are the only variables in that formula.

If you say that luck and magic are factors in the HP formula, even if you're quoting the rulebook, then the statement remains unsupported. Where in the formula are the luck and magic represented? Why does your HP total not change when you are the subject of luck-based effects, or magical protections? How do you reconcile that description with the reality of how the game world actually works?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Wow, this debate about hits points has gotten pretty good. Just for the fun of it, here are the references to hit points in 1E DMG and PHB, in full:

HIT POINTS (DMG: p.82)

It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

Harkening back to the example of Rasputin, it would be safe to assume that he could withstand physical damage sufficient to have killed any four normal men, i.e. more than 14 hit points. Therefore, let us assume that a character with an 18 constitution will eventually be able to withstand no less than 15 hit points of actual physical damage before being slain, and that perhaps as many as 23 hit points could constitute the physical makeup of a character. The balance of accrued hit points are those which fall into the non-physical areas already detailed. Furthermore, these actual physical hit points would be spread across a large number of levels, starting from a base score of from an average of 3 to 4, going up to 6 to 8 at 2nd level, 9 to 11 at 3rd, 12 to 14 at 4th, 15 to 17 at 5th, 18 to 20 at 6th, and 21 to 23 at 7th level. Note that the above assumes the character is a fighter with an average of 3 hit points per die going to physical ability to withstand punishment and only 1 point of constitution bonus being likewise assigned. Beyond the basic physical damage sustained, hits scored upon a character do not actually do such an amount of physical damage.

Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This character would have an average of 5 hit points per die, plus a constitution bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that would have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to the fighter's exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points.

CHARACTER HIT POINTS (PHB: p.34)

Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being Killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The some holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit paints are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.

Hit points are determined by hit dice. At 1st level character has but one hit die (exception: rangers and monks begin with two dice each). At each successive level another hit die is gained, i.e. the die is rolled to determine how many additional hit points the character gets. Hit points can be magically restored by healing potions, cure wounds spells, rings of regeneration, or even by wish spells. However, a character's hit points can never exceed the total initially scored by hit dice, constitution bonus (or penalty) and magical devices. For example, if a character has 26 hit points at the beginning of an adventure, he or she cannot drink a potion or be enchanted to above that number, 26 in this case.

As an example, let us assume that the character with 26 hit points mentioned above is engaged in on adventure. Early in the course of exploring the dungeon, he or she falls into a 10' deep pit taking one six-sided die (1d6) of damage - 4 hit points of damage - so the character drops to 22 hit points. Next, he or she takes 15 points of damage in combat, so the character drops to 7 hit points. A cleric of the party uses a cure serious wounds spell on the character, and this restores 10 (for example, depending upon the die roll) of his or her lost hit points, so the character has a total of 17. Later activities reduce the character to 3 hit points, but the party uses a wish spell to restore all members to full hit points, so at that time the character goes up to 26 once more.

Rest also restores hit points, for it gives the body a chance to heal itself and regain the stamina or force which adds the skill, luck, and magical hit points.

Your character's class will determine which sort of die you will roll to determine hit points. In some campaigns the referee will keep this total secret, informing players only that they feel "strong", "fatigued" or "very weak", thus indicating waning hit points. In other campaigns the Dungeon Master will have players record their character's hit points and keep track of all changes. Both methods are acceptable, and it is up to your DM as to which will be used in the campaign you participate in.

Constitution: (PHB: p.12)

Hit Point Adjustment indicates the subtraction from or addition to each hit die for a character. (Hit dice are explained fully under the appropriate heading.) Note that subtraction can never reduce any hit die below 1, i.e. if a die is rolled and a 1 comes up, or if a 2 is rolled and the penalty due to constitution is -2, the die is read as 1 (hit point) regardless of subtractions. Note also that the only class of characters which is entitled to bonuses above +2 per hit die is fighters (including the fighter sub-classes paladins and rangers ). Thus, even though o cleric, magic-user, or thief has a constitution of 17 or 18, the additional hit points for each hit die due to superior constitution is +2.

I'll let whoever cares to nit-pick through it all, but what is comes down to is this for 1E:

Only a few hit points from each hit die (3-4 at most), and 1 points from a possible constitution bonus, are the ability to take physical harm. The remaining hit points represent skill, luck, etc., including the blessing of the gods or other powers determined to support the character metaphysically.

For instance, an 8th-level fighter with a Con 17 (+3 bonus) would average 68 hit points. Only 3-4 points of each of the 8d10's and 1 point of Con bonus per level is physical resistance to actual damage. This comes out to roughly 3.5 x 8 + 8 or 36 points. The other 32 hit points are the skill, luck, sixth-sense, etc.

D&D has always had hit points represented as a blend of physical ability to withstand punishment and the ability to turn a blow so it is less lethal. That is why I explain it to new players as "combat effectiveness". It is also why I prefer D20 Star Wars with Vitality and Wounds, separating the two components.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Again, not a rule. It's a description of the rules. I describe HP as being a factor of class level and Con score, because if you look at the underlying math, those are the only variables in that formula.

If you say that luck and magic are factors in the HP formula, even if you're quoting the rulebook, then the statement remains unsupported. Where in the formula are the luck and magic represented? Why does your HP total not change when you are the subject of luck-based effects, or magical protections? How do you reconcile that description with the reality of how the game world actually works?

Keep in mind certain spells and potions (such as Heroism) granted bonus hit points to the character. This are some examples how magic figures into possible hit points.