Sneak attacking undead and constructs seems wrong

[Kurotowa]

One thing to point out is that for Assassinate, it isn't always an auto-critical. If they attack someone that hasn't gone yet, they always get advantage (which lets them use sneak attack), but it only becomes a critical if the target was surprised. Unless you are just constantly getting the drop on your enemies, he should be doing significantly less (but still good) damage on the first round. An enemy that hasn't gone isn't automatically surprised.

Also there's no "Surprise Round" anymore. Instead, it's more like you have the condition "Surprised" which is removed by consuming your first turn. Even if you Surprise a group of enemies, the Rogue still has to roll a higher Initiative or else they won't get that Assassinate bonus. That happened just this week when we went to some effort to ambush a hill giant and our Rogue rolled a lowly 6 for Init.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Well, ultimately it will be up to the DM of our group. Thankfully, that isn't my job! LOL

I am seeing this as another player at the table. I play a cleric/rogue/wizard, focused on using my rogue in pursuit of augmenting my divine and magical gifts. The character in our group is a rogue (with a couple levels of fighter for two-weapon fighting and action surge). He easily gets into a fight with another target already engaged with the fighter or barbarian in the group. He uses sneak attack every round because he his target is within 5 feet of an enemy (e.g. the party's fighter or barbarian). The extra 3d6 damage is easily matching the average damage of the fighter and barbarian, even though now get two attacks due to Extra Attack. I see it in the other players when the rogue out damages them. Especially since he went with the Assassin archetype, so on the first round he is devastating if he goes first. Oh, yeah, and he is also a half-orc so gets the savage attacker thing or whatever it is, adding another die to critical hits (which the assassinate feature is).

Typically, we see this... He has a good initiative, goes first. Moves to the target and gets to assassinate. This make the attack at advantage (gets to add +3d6 sneak attack) and a critical if he hits. When he hits, he is thus rolling 4d6 shortsword plus sneak attack, doubled to 8d6, plus 1d6 for savage half-orc, is 9d6 and plus 3 for Dexterity. Average damage is 34.5 points. Oh, and after that he still gets to roll his second weapon attack as well with the off-hand. While not as bad, it is still 3d6+3, for another 14 points on average.

The fighter and barbarian don't even come close to matching this typically, and for the rogue this isn't far-fetched or because he power-gamed the character. Even on the rounds without the assassinate, he still gets the 4d6+3 and 1d6+3, about 24 points if he hits both attacks.

Now, compare this to the fighter with a war pick and dueling style, plus extra attack. He does 1d8+6 twice, average 22. Significantly less on the first round, and about the same as the rogue after wards. Granted, he has more hp and a better AC, and another +1 to attack rolls because his Str is better than the rogue's Dex. I guess that is how he will have to accept he is superior to the rogue in combat. Still, I see it in his expression when the rogue is dominating the battlefield.

Now, wait a minute.

Assassinate only crits if the target is surprised, and surprise something the DM determines on an encounter-by-encounter basis. The target isn't automatically surprised just because they haven't acted yet; that only grants advantage and it only grants advantage to the Assassin. In that case, the Rogue should have less than a 10% chance of a crit even when rolling with advantage. The surprise-for-automatic-critical aspect of Assassinate comes up very rarely because surprise is relatively rare. You can only get the full benefits of assassinate if you've surprised the target and you act before the target (since surprise expires at the end of the target's first turn).

Here's how Jeremy Crawford explained surprise (p9):

Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round?

No, here’s how surprise works.

The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook).

To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.

If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.

In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.

That means when the Assassin beats an NPC's initiative and they're surprised, this is what happens:

Round 1: The target is surprised (critical hit) and has not taken a turn (advantage)

Round 2: The target is no longer surprised (no crit) and has not taken a turn (advantage)

Round 3: The target is no longer surprised (no crit) and has taken a turn (no advantage)

When the Assassin does not beat an NPC's initiative and they're surprised, this is what happens:

Round 1: The target is no longer surprised (no crit) and has not taken a turn (advantage)

Round 2: The target is no longer surprised (no crit) and has taken a turn (no advantage)

Given that your Assassin only has +3 to Initiative at best (unless they took the Alert feat at level 4), I do not see how they're winning initiative so often.


Furthermore the PHB says this about Surprise:

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

So the question is: Exactly how good is your party at rolling for Stealth? Generally, if they hear anybody coming then the answer to the question, "are the NPCs surprised?" is, "no." If you've got a light source, that's also a pretty big giveaway. If you haven't got a light source, then you're all at disadvantage to Perception checks even if you have darkvision and you're probably not going to detect anybody hiding at all. You're going to be the party that's surprised.

Secondly, how is the Assassin moving so quickly in the first round of every combat? Remember, both Cunning Action Dash and attacking with an off-hand weapon require a bonus action. Are you telling me that every encounter begins within 30 feet?

If every encounter begins with the NPCs surprised, and every encounter begins with the opponents within 30 feet, it's no wonder that the Assassin seems overpowered!

 

[DND_Reborn]

How's he getting to do that? By definition, if a new foe enters the conflict, that foe has taken a turn; they used it to walk in the door. Unless they're somehow getting dumped onto the battlefield without warning, they should not be at risk of assassination.

The couple times this has happened was when demons were summoned and such, so yeah, pretty much just dumped into the fight. Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.

He may not have done it purposely, but he did seem to stumble into a very effective build. It can definitely be unfun to feel like someone else is always doing the cool things in combat.

One thing to point out is that for Assassinate, it isn't always an auto-critical. If they attack someone that hasn't gone yet, they always get advantage (which lets them use sneak attack), but it only becomes a critical if the target was surprised. Unless you are just constantly getting the drop on your enemies, he should be doing significantly less (but still good) damage on the first round. An enemy that hasn't gone isn't automatically surprised.

Wow, that is a major catch that our DM hasn't been playing then. He's been letting the guy score a crit as long as he was going first! I'll have to talk to our DM about that. It makes sense, if you see him coming you obviously aren't surprised, even if you haven't acted. At least that would potentially stop a lot of his sneak attack auto-crits.

I never looked into it because my rogue archetype is scout and I thought they were playing the assassinate feature as it should be, but I just read it myself and I think you're right. I think our DM has, quite literally, been letting his rogue "get away with murder."

 

[S'mon]

How's he getting to do that? By definition, if a new foe enters the conflict, that foe has taken a turn; they used it to walk in the door. Unless they're somehow getting dumped onto the battlefield without warning, they should not be at risk of assassination.

Yeah, by RAW someone entering battle after round 1 won't be assassinatable, unless somehow they start with the Surprised condition.

 

[S'mon]

The couple times this has happened was when demons were summoned and such, so yeah, pretty much just dumped into the fight.

I guess they were Surprised demons!
I've never heard of summoned creatures be Surprised. Most commonly they get to act immediately on the same turn they're summoned, on the summoner's init.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Given that your Assassin only has +3 to Initiative at best (unless they took the Alert feat at level 4), I do not see how they're winning initiative so often.

Furthermore the PHB says this about Surprise:

So the question is: Exactly how good is your party at rolling for Stealth? Generally, if they hear anybody coming then the answer to the question, "are the NPCs surprised?" is, "no." If you've got a light source, that's also a pretty big giveaway. If you haven't got a light source, then you're all at disadvantage to Perception checks even if you have darkvision and you're probably not going to detect anybody hiding at all. You're going to be the party that's surprised.

Secondly, how is the Assassin moving so quickly in the first round of every combat? Remember, both Cunning Action Dash and attacking with an off-hand weapon require a bonus action. Are you telling me that every encounter begins within 30 feet?

If every encounter begins with the NPCs surprised, and every encounter begins with the opponents within 30 feet, it's no wonder that the Assassin seems overpowered![/QUOTE]

He did take Alert at 4 instead of the ASI.

He also took Expertise in Stealth, so at this point is +9. With most opponents low Passive Perception, he beats most things. As a half-orc, he does have Darkvision. He is the primary scout for the group (I am secondary), and even once I point out our DM's error about assassinate, he'll still get the drop on a lot of things. So, yes, most of the time he uses stealth to get close enough. As a group we are fairly stealthy, and everyone has darkvision (two dragonborn, a tiefling, half-orc, and my elf).

Also, at this point with magic and my pass without trace, he and I can scout almost undetectable. (FYI, I am Stealth +5 but with books of elvenkind, so I get advantage to move silently as well.) I took Observant and expertise in Perception so my Passive Perception is 23.

Granted, there are a lot of encounters, especially in the wilderness, where he won't be able to use it anymore.

I feel like that is a lot of information randomly inserted all over the place LOL.

 

[DND_Reborn]

How's he getting to do that? By definition, if a new foe enters the conflict, that foe has taken a turn; they used it to walk in the door. Unless they're somehow getting dumped onto the battlefield without warning, they should not be at risk of assassination.

I guess they were Surprised demons!
I've never heard of summoned creatures be Surprised. Most commonly they get to act immediately on the same turn they're summoned, on the summoner's init.

Well, since they were dumped into the fight, I guess our DM decided they were surprised. Of course, it wouldn't matter with the way he was running it since he was allowing the assassinate as long as the rogue went first and the creature had yet to act. The DM had the summon demons act the round after they were summoned.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Sorry, but can you elaborate? I am not certain what you want me to address.

Using Dex as an attack stat with physical weapons is generally justified with similar arguments to how Sneak Attack works. Do you think that Finesse weapons should be less effective against the sort of foes that you mentioned when wielded with Dex?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Using Dex as an attack stat with physical weapons is generally justified with similar arguments to how Sneak Attack works. Do you think that Finesse weapons should be less effective against the sort of foes that you mentioned when wielded with Dex?

Ah, ok, I see what you want.

To me the two are different, however related. The older concept of backstab was, quiet literally, an attack in the back. The thief attacked vitals, etc. which was why it didn't work against some foes. It changed into a surprise attack against an opponent who was unaware, and now into using the idea of exploiting your opponent's moment of distraction, etc.

The idea of finesse weapons using Dex instead of Str is understandable to me. When I was in college I spent one semester studying fencing. It is more about timing and reacting quickly when the opening presents itself, as opposed to Str where the hope is to force your way through the target's defense. Even so, that would hardly allow me to know how to sneak attack someone--I simply don't have the training or insight to do it.

Of course they are similar, which is why you can only sneak attack with a finesse weapon. What I find interesting, is that you do not have to use Dex when employing finesse weapons to make a sneak attack. You could have a Fighter with a Str 20, using a rapier (why not? 5E is in love with them *rolleyes*) who takes a level of rogue. Then when he is fighting with an ally and targets a vulnerable foe, he could gain the +1d6 sneak attack damage once per round. And he could use his Str +5 modifier while doing it.

Personally, I think one way they did a disservice to sneak attack in 5E is limiting it to finesse weapons. If a rogue sneaks up on a foe, and bashes him on the head with a war hammer, why not allow the sneak attack damage? That is when it SHOULD be applied, IMO, if ever.

But I digress... back to your final question. Like some people, it wouldn't bother me if finesse weapons could use Dex to attack rolls, but not damage. But keeping it the way it is doesn't really bother me, either. I do wish more monsters, including some of the ones I've mentioned, such as the stone golem, should be less vulnerable to some weapons such as certain finesse ones. I'm sorry, but it is ridiculous for piercing weapons to do normal damage against creatures like skeletons or stone golems. You are more like to break your blade than harm a stone golem. Yes, they have immunities to non-magical non-adamantine weapons, but against even magical or adamantine piercing weapons they should have resistance to piercing weapons.

I find it comical that skeletons have vulnerability to bludgeoning weapons, but not resistance to piercing. You are so much more likely to miss a skeleton with a piercing attack or at least less likely to damage it.

Anyway, that's enough for now. Somewhere in all that I am sure you can glean my response. Have a nice night.

 

[Azzy]

A related issue may be that the definition of "damage" has changed.

In earlier editions, damage measured only the ability to inflict physical trauma. The only way to inflict damage was to physically impact their body. The only things that increased your damage were those things which made you hit harder, or made your hits hurt more by striking vital places.

Not exactly. The first explanation of hit points (1e) notes that hit points are not entirely physical. Also, there were non-physical means of dealing damage (illusions, for example).