Sneak attacking undead and constructs seems wrong

[The Crimson Binome]

1e's Shadow Magic, Demi-Shadow Monsters, and other similar spells would like to talk to you.

At least in 3E, these things were described as being quasi-real. A shadow troll has less mass than a regular troll, but it's still a physical being. A shadow fireball has less heat to it, but it also has shadow energy, which is still tangible. I don't know how much the 1E descriptions differ from those.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If you do read further into the thread, you might find to the same conclusion I have. The OP's table includes an assassin who had focused on ambushing the enemy, and at least some of the other PCs are built to help him do so. And it may be that the DM is counting every one of the assassin's targets as surprised, so he is automatically critting in nearly every combat.

The underlying problem here really looks like the assassin is dealing out crazy damage, and the other players are feeling outshined.

That was precisely the problem, which we addressed today I am happy to say. Once I pointed out the error in assassinate, the player was a bit muffed, as was the DM, but everyone agreed that without surprise, he wasn't quite as damaging...

LOL, I say not as quite, because he still did 45 points of damage (no crits) in one round against some green hags. The fighter and barbarian just rolled their eyes and laughed half-heartedly. *shrug*

 

[Hussar]

That was precisely the problem, which we addressed today I am happy to say. Once I pointed out the error in assassinate, the player was a bit muffed, as was the DM, but everyone agreed that without surprise, he wasn't quite as damaging...

LOL, I say not as quite, because he still did 45 points of damage (no crits) in one round against some green hags. The fighter and barbarian just rolled their eyes and laughed half-heartedly. *shrug*

What level rogue are we talking about?

You do know that you can only sneak attack once per turn right? No matter how many attacks you get. We're looking at a minimum of about an 11th level rogue to deal that kind of damage without a crit. By that point, he's just about keeping up with the fighter who should be dealing that kind of damage every round.

 

[DND_Reborn]

What level rogue are we talking about?

Well, in case you missed details earlier in the thread, he is actually a rogue/fighter multiclass (5/5), 10th character levels total in the typical sense but we play the old version of multiclassing, so he has the abilities of both a Fighter 5 and a Rogue 5, but only the HP and prof bonus of a 5th level character. It gives us more options and abilities at lower levels, but we need twice the XP so slows things down.

Anyway, he hit once with his sneak attack using his short sword, got his extra attack via fighter, and hit with his handaxe as his bonus action. If I recall correctly, he did 21 points on the first hit sneak attack, then something like 10 or 11 on the second hit, and rolled max with the hand-axe for 10. Maybe it was 42 points and not 45? I don't recall exactly, but I remember the DM saying it was half the hit points the green hag started with. He did roll pretty well, but I think his average with all three hits (assuming he gets his sneak attack) is about 34-35.

By contrast, the fighter is doing about 26 or 27 per round with all hits, but he only has two attacks max since he uses a shield and doesn't "shield punch" with it. I guess on average the fighter is slightly higher per hit by a point or two. Either way, now that we reconciled the errors in the assassinate feature, it is much better.

 

[Hussar]

Well, in case you missed details earlier in the thread, he is actually a rogue/fighter multiclass (5/5), 10th character levels total in the typical sense but we play the old version of multiclassing, so he has the abilities of both a Fighter 5 and a Rogue 5, but only the HP and prof bonus of a 5th level character. It gives us more options and abilities at lower levels, but we need twice the XP so slows things down.

Anyway, he hit once with his sneak attack using his short sword, got his extra attack via fighter, and hit with his handaxe as his bonus action. If I recall correctly, he did 21 points on the first hit sneak attack, then something like 10 or 11 on the second hit, and rolled max with the hand-axe for 10. Maybe it was 42 points and not 45? I don't recall exactly, but I remember the DM saying it was half the hit points the green hag started with. He did roll pretty well, but I think his average with all three hits (assuming he gets his sneak attack) is about 34-35.

By contrast, the fighter is doing about 26 or 27 per round with all hits, but he only has two attacks max since he uses a shield and doesn't "shield punch" with it. I guess on average the fighter is slightly higher per hit by a point or two. Either way, now that we reconciled the errors in the assassinate feature, it is much better.

I think the point to remember is, the only difference between the fighter/rogue and just a straight champion fighter is the extra 3d6 on a single attack with a short sword. So, effectively, he got an extra 9 points of damage for the round. Comparing a two weapon fighter to a sword and board fighter will always result in the S&B fighter dealing less damage. Of course.

It's always good, when making comparisons like these, to keep all the variables in mind. A 2 weapon fighter is meant to deal lots of damage. At the cost of not being able to use bonus actions for other stuff very often and the AC hit as well. Plus the feat cost to be able to use stat damage on the off hand attack.

Seems about right.

 

[André Soares]

By contrast, the fighter is doing about 26 or 27 per round with all hits, but he only has two attacks max since he uses a shield and doesn't "shield punch" with it. I guess on average the fighter is slightly higher per hit by a point or two. Either way, now that we reconciled the errors in the assassinate feature, it is much better.

It seems to me that your rogue was built to do a lot of damage, and your fighter was built to be defensive. And that's what is happening in the game. If the fighter wanted to do more damage than a multiclassed character focused on dealing damage (even if it is not the best MC build for damage) the character should be built for it.

 

[André Soares]

Plus the feat cost to be able to use stat damage on the off hand attack.

*Fighting Style cost

 

[DND_Reborn]

It seems to me that your rogue was built to do a lot of damage, and your fighter was built to be defensive. And that's what is happening in the game. If the fighter wanted to do more damage than a multiclassed character focused on dealing damage (even if it is not the best MC build for damage) the character should be built for it.

Well, we build characters we want to play without necessarily min/maxing them. The rogue just sort of turned out that way. The fighter does have a bit more hp and a better AC. It would be a pretty even one-on-one fight, but IMO a rogue should not be able to hold his own against a fighter in general. Granted in this case, he is a rogue/fighter so it is much more reasonable.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, in case you missed details earlier in the thread, he is actually a rogue/fighter multiclass (5/5), 10th character levels total in the typical sense but we play the old version of multiclassing, so he has the abilities of both a Fighter 5 and a Rogue 5, but only the HP and prof bonus of a 5th level character. It gives us more options and abilities at lower levels, but we need twice the XP so slows things down.

Anyway, he hit once with his sneak attack using his short sword, got his extra attack via fighter, and hit with his handaxe as his bonus action. If I recall correctly, he did 21 points on the first hit sneak attack, then something like 10 or 11 on the second hit, and rolled max with the hand-axe for 10. Maybe it was 42 points and not 45? I don't recall exactly, but I remember the DM saying it was half the hit points the green hag started with. He did roll pretty well, but I think his average with all three hits (assuming he gets his sneak attack) is about 34-35.

This is way outside the design specs of 5E, so I wouldn't expect it to be balanced out of the box. What you've got here isn't a rogue but a fighter with Assassinate and Sneak Attack. 5th level spans 6500 to 13999 XP; if he's 5/5 by your rules, then the rest of the party is only level 6-7. I'm not surprised he's outperforming them.

 

[André Soares]

Well, we build characters we want to play without necessarily min/maxing them. The rogue just sort of turned out that way. The fighter does have a bit more hp and a better AC. It would be a pretty even one-on-one fight, but IMO a rogue should not be able to hold his own against a fighter in general. Granted in this case, he is a rogue/fighter so it is much more reasonable.

sure! I'm not saying one character was built wrong, or the other was min maxed to be superior to the others. What I'm saying is, the rogue is not just a rogue, it is a MC, the gives him a lot of raw power. It should be acounted for. The fact the fighter went for defense should be observed to. There is nothing worng with that choices, but they will cause this diferences in the game.