So what about the everyman?

[Irda Ranger]

Umm, wasn't Frodo directly decended from Hobbit heroes? As I recall Took clan Hobbits were known to be adventurers. Gimli and Leggylass were hardly nobodies. Boromir was hardly an everyman. Aragorn was 80 years old and one of the last of a superior race. Gandalf was an angel.

That leaves Sam.

Don't forget Merry and Pippin.

And did you spell Legolas' name that way on purpose? If so: Funny.

As I see it, Boromir, Legolas and Gimli had the advantage of being higher level. They were already experienced adventurers. Other than that though, they were not extraordinary examples of their race (IMO). Sure, Legolas was awesome, but he was a Tolkien elf. JRR did not "balance" his races.

IMO, only Aragorn and Gandalf were extraordinary.

 

[Hussar]

Merry is a Brandybuck, directly related to Took through his mother. There's your bit of heroism. Pippin, I'll give you.

After a bit of wiki searching - Gimli is in the dwarven royal family, Legolas is son of the Elven King of Mirkwood. ((Note, the Leggylass is from the gifted pen of DM of the Rings) Boromir is not exactly a commoner, regardless of his actual level.

So, of the Fellowship, only Pippin and Sam aren't either royalty or related to heroes.

Just as a side note, pointing to Shanarra in your original post IR, you do realize that it's a total rip-off of LotR, so, there should be similarities.

I get what you're saying, but, really, how many people actually played this way? How many fighters did you see that didn't put their highest stat in strength? How many magic users or wizards (depending on edition) didn't put every bit they could into their Int scores?

We've known for some time that 1st level sucks. It's boring. Either you run away a lot or you die. Or the DM fudges lots and lets you live. Or you add in Action Points, which lets the players fudge. In any case, 1st level blows. There's a reason the sweet spot usually doesn't start until about 3rd or 4th level.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Umm, wasn't Frodo directly decended from Hobbit heroes? As I recall Took clan Hobbits were known to be adventurers. Gimli and Leggylass were hardly nobodies. Boromir was hardly an everyman. Aragorn was 80 years old and one of the last of a superior race. Gandalf was an angel.

That leaves Sam.

Even LoTR is hardly a story of "everyman".

Ahem. Sam IS the hero of LotR. Not Frodo. Not Aragorn or Gandalf. Sam.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

From reading the OP's posts I don't really think WHFRP is a good fit.

I could be wrong but grim and gritty doesn't seem to be the point so much as naive and inexperienced.

All right, based on the horribly incomplete information so far, here's how I think DnD can do, in the original sense, Smallville:

1. I think 4E will do the do 'we run from the goblins bit' better than 3E simply based on how easy it will be to put together complex encounters. In 3E you had to decide if you could take out the creature, in 4E you decide to take out the creature and whatever get's summoned by the alarm he sounds. As several people have noted 4E seems to be more options for tougher situations.
2. Some aspects of the 'farmboy' are going to depend on context. Sure, a cleric has miraculous powers, no way of avoiding that, but she may still be a green apprentice within her field.
3. A lot of it probably depends on how you make the character. Bilbo is a really competent thief, he just doesn't know it yet. So you make a character that has inobvious initial feats and talents. Straight skill bennies, for instance, rather than powers.
4. I think the many different class systems might let you do apprentices better. You wanna be an apprentice mage? Just skimp one of the power areas. Go all per encounter abilities and save the rituals for when your master teaches them to you.

Bottom line I think that 4E is really working hard to let you play competent characters right out of the box, but I don't think that competent necessarily has to equal professional.

Or vice versa really, D'Artagnan is an excellent swordsman and professional soldier on his way to being a better swordsman, but he's still a rube.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Ahem. Sam IS the hero of LotR. Not Frodo. Not Aragorn or Gandalf. Sam.

And I think you can easily make the argument that Sam starts out as a 1st Level Star Wars style Scout with the fringer talents and ends up as something very different and greater than when he started.

So you could easily do it with Saga, which is a good sign.

 

[Irda Ranger]

So, of the Fellowship, only Pippin and Sam aren't either royalty or related to heroes.

What's your point? That heroism is a heritable trait? That only kings can be heroes? That peasants should know their place?

Sorry, I don't think those things are true. Too many examples going the other way.

Just as a side note, pointing to Shanarra in your original post IR, you do realize that it's a total rip-off of LotR, so, there should be similarities.

I didn't mention Shanarra, the OP did. And Shanarra was better. IMO, of course.

Although, thinking of Shannara ... Wil Ohsford was "no one special", but I'd rather have him at my side than that errant bow-yielding prince from the northern city, whose name I cannot recall.

I get what you're saying, but, really, how many people actually played this way? How many fighters did you see that didn't put their highest stat in strength? How many magic users or wizards (depending on edition) didn't put every bit they could into their Int scores?

What does that have to do with anything? The OP wanted to play an "everyman", not a moron or a weakling. I interpret that as someone of common background, who would have lead a normal life but for unusual circumstance. The OP can correct me if I misunderstood.

 

[Scribble]

What's your point? That heroism is a heritable trait? That only kings can be heroes? That peasants should know their place?

To me it's not an instance of "only kings can be heroes."

It's just that a hero is a special person. Sure he can start as a nomal everyday guy, but the moment he steps off that path onto the harder one, he or she is a hero. Plain and simple.

The moment Frodo, or Sam, or Merry or Pippin stepped out of the Hobbit homes, and onto the road to Mordor, they became heroes.

 

[Remathilis]

So, of the Fellowship, only Pippin and Sam aren't either royalty or related to heroes.

I thought Pippins real name was Peregrin Took which would make him a closer descendant to the Took Clan than either Frodo or Meriadoc. Course IIRC, Frodo survives a Morgul-blade wound, Merry and Pippin become knights of the realm and Sam has the willpower to temporarily resist the Ring's lure while Frodo was poisoned by Shelob. None of those are particularly "ordinary" feats.

but that's neither here or there.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I thought Pippins real name was Peregrin Took which would make him a closer descendant to the Took Clan than either Frodo or Meriadoc. Course IIRC, Frodo survives a Morgul-blade wound, Merry and Pippin become knights of the realm and Sam has the willpower to temporarily resist the Ring's lure while Frodo was poisoned by Shelob. None of those are particularly "ordinary" feats.

As far as Sam resisting the lure of the ring, YES, that's an "ordinary" feat. In fact, he can only do it because he's so ordinary. He's just a country gardener. He resists the lure of the ring not because he's got a +25 Will save, but because he is just a humble guy who doesn't want power at all. As I read the book, at least, JRRT is telling a story in which the smallest and most unassuming people save the day precisely because they aren't ambitious. We tend to think of ambition as a good thing (at least in the USA), but it's really a double-edged sword, and I think JRRT looked more skeptically on it. Considering his Christian scholarship, that makes a lot of sense -- after all, what was Lucifer's failing? Pride and ambition. But look at Sam's request of a gift from Galadriel. He just wants some nice dirt in which to grow plants. All he wants to be is a gardener, and THAT is his salvation -- he is content with his life and doesn't suffer from ambition, so the Ring has no hold over him.

Sam is from the lowest social class among the four hobbits (the book has him often calling Frodo "Master"), and that's why JRRT makes him the hero. JRRT had "the common man" triumph, and I think he'd be rolling over in his grave if he heard readers interpreting LotR as a fantasy story in which the hero triumphs because he's tougher/smarter/luckier/braver than everybody else (as in, say, Greek myth). That's how I read it, anyway. I may not be explaining myself as well as I'd like, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at here.

 

[Thunderfoot]

To me it's not an instance of "only kings can be heroes."

It's just that a hero is a special person. Sure he can start as a nomal everyday guy, but the moment he steps off that path onto the harder one, he or she is a hero. Plain and simple.

The moment Frodo, or Sam, or Merry or Pippin stepped out of the Hobbit homes, and onto the road to Mordor, they became heroes.

OK folks, THIS is what I mean. (Scribble, your quote kind of sums things up nicely, please don't feel as if I'm picking on you directly, unfortunately, you have the unenviable talent of summing up the mish-mash of ideas so far.)

A hero is NOT a special person. Most heroes will tell you, they are no one special; just ordinary folks that did extraordinary things when the time warranted. One of the things I liked about the original game and most of its incarnations was the sense of growth the character experienced over time. Starting with 3.x (thought 2e had its share) its seems that leveling is quicker, abilities are growing out of control and things are heading down the slippery power slope.

Lineage and everyman don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive (though it probably helps). I guess I'm trying not to draw parallels (it seems far too easy and often done here of late), I guess what concerns me is that so far, no one connected to the game has even attempted to dispute the point. (No I'm not being bitter here, just point out the obvious).

Again my intent is not to shame, disregard, belittle or hassle anyone. In 30 years I've seen the game grow in scope and power and the people play it change right along with it, however, I'm getting old and approaching that point where major change is no longer desirable. (so don't make me hit you with my cane. ) But I long for the days when 'ultimate' power wasn't so easily gained and you had to 'work' for the payoff.

I don't know, maybe I'm just wanting what I can no longer have...