So, What's The Challenge Rating Of All Those Demon Lords?

Out of the Abyss is out today in selected game stores (it'll be out elsewhere on September 15th), and many folks have already gotten their copies. As details trickle in (Drizzt is not in the adventure), here's one quick tidbit courtesy of EN World member Evandis: the Challenge Rating of the eight demon lords who are rampaging around the Underdark! Head down to your local game store (assuming it's a Wizards Play Network store) today to grab the adventure, produced for WotC by Green Ronin.

Baphomet CR 23
Fraz-Urb'luu CR 23
Juiblex CR 23
Zuggtmoy CR 23
Graz'zt CR 24
Yeenoghu CR 24
Demogorgon CR 26
Orcus CR 26

​

​

 

[Celebrim]

Fraz-Urb'luu despite reduced fame, is arguably at least as potent as Orcus and Demogorgon. At 233 hp, he had one of the highest 1e h.p. totals (and implied HD) of any of the fiend lords. At the very least, he and Graz'zt out to be on the second tier at 25 CR. If I had my way, I'd put Orcus in 4th place in terms of CR. Don't care for Orcus. Way overdone.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Fraz-Urb'luu despite reduced fame, is arguably at least as potent as Orcus and Demogorgon. At 233 hp, he had one of the highest 1e h.p. totals (and implied HD) of any of the fiend lords. At the very least, he and Graz'zt out to be on the second tier at 25 CR. If I had my way, I'd put Orcus in 4th place in terms of CR. Don't care for Orcus. Way overdone.

Looking at all the demons in 5e, and as a player, I would probably hate to face Fraz as much as any other demon, just because as a player, you have no idea what is what. Master of illusion and lies is right. Especially if you have to fight it in its lair. Nothing so obvious as huge damage or power word kills, but everything else that messes with your mind.

 

[occam]

I don't know. Looking at their stats, I'd almost rather fight Yeenoghu than Juiblex. The gnoll lord is all about straight damage and pushing. Juiblex is all about higher DC restraining and poison and ruining your items. It has an eject slime attack that not only does a lot of damage, but armor suffers a permanent -1 penalty to AC and weapons suffer a permanent -1 to damage each time they are hit by it.

Oh, I was talking about the 1e Monster Manual. Are those the 5e stats? Sounds pretty wicked.

 

[TroyBentonGames]

Thanks for posting the CR Evandis.
Looking forward to getting the book in!

 

[Celtavian]

I'll modify the demon lords because I'll be handing out some nice stuff to fight them. Probably give them damage resistance against magical weapons as well. And adding some abilities here and there.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I'll modify the demon lords because I'll be handing out some nice stuff to fight them. Probably give them damage resistance against magical weapons as well. And adding some abilities here and there.

If you do that you might as well double their HP. Maybe do what the Old days did and say immune to damage from nonmagical weapons of +1 or less. So they need at least +2 weapons to hurt them.

Anyway my mods are going to be fairly minor. Just giving some of them a short range teleport and bumping up Demogorgon's size to Gargantuan and strength to 30. Along with letting him do one Gaze with his Muti attack.

 

[Celtavian]

If you do that you might as well double their HP. Maybe do what the Old days did and say immune to damage from nonmagical weapons of +1 or less. So they need at least +2 weapons to hurt them.

Anyway my mods are going to be fairly minor. Just giving some of them a short range teleport and bumping up Demogorgon's size to Gargantuan and strength to 30. Along with letting him do one Gaze with his Muti attack.

I don't want to work in the old DR system. I'll boost hit points when I find out the size of the party I'll be running. I like Damage Resistance better than doubling hit points at the moment. I like the idea that even with magic items, the demon lords are hard to hurt.

I like your idea for a Gaze Attack as part of their multiattack. I might work that in, but it might be fine as a Legendary action. I'll probably give them proficiency in all saves as well.

 

[CapnZapp]

Revisiting this thread now that my OotA campaign is finally moving into the second half, and examining these threads are starting to become relevant.

S P O I L E R S

I mean, when Demogorgon made a surprise attack at the level 3 party, I pretty much didn't worry

But now, when they're level 7 (and sure to gain a few levels on the way), there is a random encounter featuring Juiblex.

So I open up the book at page 242 and immediately start to worry. The demon lord is encountered alone outside of his lair, essentially a wandering monster?

And he has only 300+ hit points and downright weakass ranged attacks and no quick-mode of travel? And is that Acid Splash the cantrip?

Won't that be an incredibly anticlimactic instawin for the players? Already at this level, they routinely do over a 100 points of damage per round.

He has regeneration, but no - it's as easy to shut down as for a mere Troll. (Why can this regen be shut down at all?)

Now, there are a few factors that make this more difficult, but surely not CR 23 difficult?!?!?

Most of all, I'm worried the book has no worry at all that Juiblex will lose that fight, only guiding the DM it won't follow fleeing characters.

But why would they flee? (And why would the Dm need Juiblex not to follow them - he can't catch them even if he tries!)

I start to suspect the OotA authors have never heard of 'kiting'...

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm immediately thinking that Juiblex needs allies. But all oozes are very low CR. Suggestions?

He needs a more reliable way of either doing ranged damage, or he needs a mode of travel that lets him counter kiting longbow archers.

Do note that OotA hands out the blessing "a weapon in your hands count as magical", so obviously all my players either have fireball or a ranged weapon that defeats magic resistance. Meaning that melee is only stupid and dangerous (which Juiblex is a good example of).

Do note my players aren't even double digit levels. It's okay if they die trying.

My real concern is that I'm assuming that by level 11, the OotA Juiblex will be a pushover.

 

[CapnZapp]

Finally: yes, I've seen dave2008's epic monsters thread.

Here's his "fixed" Juiblex. He's gained a few CR, but much more importantly, he now deserves a Challenge Rating in the twenties.

My problem is: now I have to choose between a statblock that probably doesn't even deserve CR 15 and a best-in-class CR 26 that you probably need to research weaknesses/strengths for to fight successfully in your high teens.

Damage Resistances cold, fire, lightning, poison; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from a +2 or lesser magical weapons
Damage Immunities bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing that is nonmagical
Condition Immunities charmed, exhaustion, frightened

Banishment. When a demon lord drops to 0 hit points, its body is destroyed but its essence travels back to its domain, and is unable to take physical form for a time.
Innate Spellcasting. Refer to individual entries for a demon lord’s spell casting ability, their save DC, and attack bonus. Demon lords can innately cast the following spells at 6th level or higher, requiring no material components:
At will: comprehend languages, darkness, detect magic, detect thoughts, polymorph, see invisibility, telekinesis
3/day each: arcane gate, dispel magic, fear, teleport
1/day each: forbiddance, symbol
Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If a demon lord fails a saving throw, it can use a reaction to succeed instead.
Limited Magic Immunity. Unless a demon lord wishes to be affected, it is immune to spells of 4th level or lower, and it as advantage on all other spells and magical effects.
Magic Weapons. A demon lord’s weapon attacks are treated as +2 magical weapons.

Juiblex (CR 26):by dave2008
[sblock]View attachment 70563[/sblock]