@Sword of Spirit
In the OP you stated fire sorcs are fine and then stated you couldn't make your black dragon sorc theme, then seemed to contradict yourself later by adding features to the base class that have nothing to do with the reason fire sorcs are fine. If fire sorcs are fine because of the spells available on the sorc list then the obvious solutions are reskinning fire spells or creating acid spells. Divine soul being fine reaffirms this given the main benefit is a bigger spell list from which to choose. If the issue indicated later is the base mechanics and shortage of spells creates an issue with the class then it would also apply to those two subclasses. IE, the solution doesn't match up with the real issue because the real issue seems to only apply to specific themes instead of the class itself.
First, let me say that your whole post is well-reasoned and useful. Thanks. I'll try to give as cogent a response to the areas where I differ in my conclusions.
I wasn't actually claiming that either Draconic fire sorcerers or Divine Souls are fine. Rather, I wanted to avoid taking them as the baseline, because they are better than other sorcerers in ways that I think obsfucate the real issues with the class. People overlook the weaknesses that remain with those subclasses because they have enough raw strength if used in certain ways that those holes aren't as important as the areas in which they excel. Or to get even more psychological about it--since subclass X is
obviously powerful, and subclass Y is
obviously flexible, there is no reason to really even
entertain claims that there might be problems with the design of the core class. By making sure we weren't talking about those particular subclasses, I hoped to reframe the discussion to a baseline where the design flaws I'm addressing are more clearly visible and don't elicit the knee-jerk objection response. The fixes I am proposing (continuing to work on refining) should not overpower the best subclasses, but should fill those holes in a way so as to bring the overall effectiveness of all sorcerers in line with wizards.
So here is how those subclasses fit with my initial three points that #1 they need to know more spells, #2 they need to have more choices (larger spell list), and #3 they need to be on fire...I mean, #3 sorcery points need to be reserved mostly for creating spell slots with Flexible Casting.
Fire Draconic might have enough choices #2 for their theme, but they don't have enough spells to have the level of breadth I feel that they should #1 (which I'll get to later), and they still have the same issue with #3 that all sorcerers do.
Divine Soul definitely has enough spells for their theme #2 (and in fact, I consider the ability to have full access to two spell lists like they do to be overpowered), but they still have the problems of #1 and #3.
So for fire Draconic, they don't need much from area #2 to be a raging inferno of doom--and when you're a raging inferno of doom you can just incinerate anyone who points out your blemishes.
For Divine Soul, they get so much from area #2 that they can invoke holy/unholy consequences on anyone who brings up their lacking virtues.
What is needed regarding #2 is for the basic sorcerer chassis to provide more spell choices so that concepts that don't synergize as well as (just about only) fire Draconic sorcerers do can also feel satisfied. Draconic fire will
still be the tyrant king of damage, and Divine Soul will still remain the high priest of flexibility, but other concepts will be able to express themselves at an acceptable degree of effectiveness.
This is how I would build a black dragon sorc, fwiw, to approximate your theme you seem to want.
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Just wanted to note that I didn't take
fear because of the subclass ability, and because I did't have space for it. Also, I don't like to assume Feats in class effectiveness. Other than that, it's a well put together character concept, but it just doesn't have things that I feel are needed to fill out a solid party arcanist. There's no damaging spells except cantrips until level 7. You did a better job than I did of getting generally useful spells at lower levels, but the only reason this was possible was because of the lack of thematic spells (some of which aren't available on the sorcerer list). Substituting
shield in place of
mirror image as the defensive spell highlights an issue with such limited spell selection.
Shield is actually more effective, but I don't see it fitting this character (he's more about misdirection when possible).
With such limited choices, you end up with a forced choice situation between effectiveness and thematic fit unless the same spells happen to meet both requirements (as is the case with the fire Draconic's damage spells).
I don't think any character in D&D should ever have to make that choice. There should
always be multiple spell choices that accomplish similar goals in thematically different ways so that you can choose from as wide of a variety of concepts as are reasonable for a character class. The sorcerer class, with or without specific subclasses, should be broad enough to cover any arcane caster concepts except: scholarly caster, pact with other entity, or bardic magic. Odd concepts like Divine Soul are okay requiring a subclass to pull that off, but most shouldn't. Draconic (when making themes that are draconic only in terms of "magic came from dragons, so dragon heritage gives you magic") and Wild Magic (for themes that only require "I was just born with magic from who knows where") should be broad enough subclasses to cover the rest. Yes, this
does mean that there can be a lot of overlap between wizard and sorcerer concepts--and there should be! A sorceress who is an enchantress/illusionist (and still covers other basic roles) should be able to exist side by side with a wizard of the Enchantment or Illusion tradition. Some people disagree with me on this. Some people think that sorceress concept should just play a wizard. I disagree this is how it should work. This sort of overlap is a part of traditional sorcerer identity, and is one reason there is still so much overlap in their spell lists. Playing someone with magic flowing through their veins is in and of itself a different concept than someone who learns magic academically. Mechanics should make them different without preventing them from filling similar party roles.
Few other points...
You also mentioned bards have wish. They don't. They can add wish via secrets and that's not quite the same.
It's not quite the same, but anyone who can take
wish should take
wish. ;-) Bards (especially Lore bards) have a really good "effective spell list". For a Lore Bard, literally 1/3 of their spells can come from any list. And the bard list itself has a fairly broad range, mostly just lacking in the boom spells and divine category (though they get a lot of good healing). More on Magical Secrets below.
The comparison for 3.5 spells known is was a bit misleading. 3.5 bard knew 29 spells (not including 0 level) and 9 types of songs by default. Sorcerers knew 34 spells total (not including 0 level). 38 spell + songs > 34 spells. Sorcs had more cantrips then too, much like now. The point is sorcerers had less magical options than bards then too, not just now. Just like then bards had more skill options too they do now. 5e isn't a new precedent here; it combined the features of bards to be more streamlined.
Good point on the bard songs. I think sorcerer probably should still have the least known spells. But (if you take warlock out of the equation for a moment) they lag farther behind proportionately in 5e than they did in 3e. And when you are dealing with such a small number of spells known, every spell counts. My house rule is able to move across a line from too few to acceptable with only 4 spells, and still keep with the fewest known spells of any full-caster. I considered other numbers, and I eventually came up with 4 as the number that feels right, both rationally and intuitively. A question here is: Does anyone feel that adding 4 additional known spells to a sorcerer over the course of 17 levels is
too many?
It doesn't matter how many spells a paladin knows if he or she doesn't have the slots available to cast them. That's true for all spell casters.
Here I can't agree at all. Because of how 5e disconnects spells known/prepared from spell slots, knowing more spells gives you a lot of flexibility during the day. The more spell choices you have available to you during the day, the more likely you are to have the
right spell for a situation.
Font of magic might be shared with metamagic but it's still an option far beyond paladins or clerics or bards or warlocks or paladins or most druids. Wizards don't fall into that because they all have the short rest renewal but sorcs are better off than most casters in that regard.
Let's say you split your pool in two, with half of it being for Flexible Casting, and half of it being for Metamagic. Now you still have a limited use of your Metamagic features, but you are behind wizard in spell slots per day--which is something sorcerers have traditionally been ahead of wizards in, and which I feel is an essential part of their identity. Requiring taking any sorcery points away from Flexible Casting just to access other features loses part of the identity of the sorcerer. More on that below.
Your comparison of sorcerous insight to magical secrets is misleading because restricting the classes to those classes isn't much of a restriction and bards don't get magical secrets until 10th level. Starting it at first level and then saying it's weaker than the high level bard ability (when it's not really) doesn't hold much water. It's granting 3 spells from almost any class before bards even get the ability.
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Sorcerous insight is too early. Sorcerer spells known isn't far behind spells prepped or compared to other arcane casters and they are ahead in cantrips. It's high level where they really fall behind and that's fixable by continuing the spells known progression. That seems more suitable to getting the spells known when they would be more applicable to the gap.
I don't disagree that Sorcerous Insight is more powerful than Magical Secrets at lower level. I will say the spell list restriction isn't meaningless though, because there are 74 spells that are available to Magical Secrets but not Sorcerous Insight. When considering which levels to give the feature to sorcerers at, I had a couple of considerations in mind (based on previous attempts that I wasn't entirely happy with). The first was to not give them too many spells too soon. I want to preserve their place of being on the lower end of spells known, so I threw out a previous idea of giving them proficiency bonus (also doesn't play well with multiclassing) or Charisma mod extra spells. The second, and most important, consideration was that the additional spells need to actually be given to them at the levels when they will assist them in filling out their concept. Now that's rather tricky because different concepts need spells at different levels. For instance, in the case of my Black Draconic sorcerer, 1st and 5th level weren't ideal, because he didn't need thematic spells from the 1st or 3rd level spell lists. But there are plenty of character concepts that really could benefit from having the right spell at 1st level. A theme involving nature might want
animal friendship or
entangle to start, while a character who received their sorcerous powers by being bathed in a healing spring as an infant might want to start out with
cure wounds. I basically decided that they need one at 1st and one at 5th so they can get those early defining spells. It seems unfortunate to make them wait until a higher level to get that 1st level spell they may need to express the theme.
Sometimes the theme also looks like trying to eat your cake and have it too. For example, the comparison to 3.5 left out the part that those sorcerers didn't have metamagic by default (wizards had the free feats for it) and in 5e it's rather exclusive to the class. It's like you want to add a past trait and also keep the current upgrades. ;-)
Pretty much all the classes got upgrades, so it's a matter of looking at the overall balance of the classes and seeing how it all works out. I actually
do want them to get the new stuff and keep the old stuff, because I think sorcerers aren't properly balanced in 5e (sort of the premise of the topic, lol).
Metamagic addendum is more complex than it needs to be. It also favors high point cost meta's like heighten or twin. Using twin for free on a high level spell seems ridiculous to me. It's becomes more open to abuse as more single-target spells become available, which is compounded by sorcerous insight and one of the reasons given for restricting sorc spells in the first place. Twin is already one of the favorite meta options. Adding CHA mod to sorc points is a better tweak if you think it's needed.
Metamagic affinity seems like it's too much. However, spell mastery is also pretty powerful so if you add affinity the time to do it would be at a similar level.
You're completely right on the complexity. An easier way to do it might be to just give them Arcane Recovery and leave Sorcery Points for Metamagic. But I think the potential benefits of a bit more complexity might be significant enough to warrant consideration.
So let's dig a bit into the balance of features of sorcerers and wizards and see what sorcerer needs. I'll leave out analogous features, or only address the elements where one stands out as more powerful than another. For instance, I won't mention HD or most proficiencies. I'll define features as either providing Flexibility or Power or both. Since I'm assuming my Sorcerous Insight proposal, I'll include it in the list. I'll first start out without including Metamagic at all, since its balance is something to be considered.
Wizard Tradition + Spell Mastery + Signature Spell takes up the same space as Sorcerous Origin + Sorcerous Restoration, but they are not equal in value. If you look at Wizard Traditions and Sorcerous Origins
without the features that require the expenditure of Sorcery Points, they are more or less equal (outliers aside). Treating the features that require Sorcery Points as something mostly distinct from the subclass for balance assessments is probably a good idea. Sorcerous Restoration is also rather weak compared to Signature Spell at this point in evaluation.
Arcane Recovery and Font of Magic are equal in their ability to restore spell points. At some levels one is slightly better, and at other levels the other is. Most of the time you can create the same number and level of spell slots with them. As far as creating spell slots, there is neither a power nor flexbility edge to either.
Flexible Casting, when used to burn low level spell slots and create higher level ones is not nearly as good as it's cracked up to be if you start with the adventuring day design assumptions of 6-8 encounters and 2 short rests. From levels 9+ (and it's only worse at lower level), if you blow all your lower level spell slots except for one 4th-level (or your four 1st-level) you can create three additional 5th-level spell slots. That might sound good, but it actually only gives you 4-6 daily 5th-level spell slots (plus a 4th) while the warlock with two short rests has 6-12 5th-level spell slots. That's a pretty big difference--you're turning yourself into a warlock with less spell slots. Sure, if you know there is a major fight that is going to last you long enough to use all of those spell slots you can get some benefit out of it compared to a warlock, but a warlock can get dozens of 5th-level spell slots if they take a bunch of short rests in the day. I'm going to stick with design assumptions of 2 short rests rather than unlimited short rests or a 5MWD. Flexible Casting for converting spell slots into other spell slots is only of marginal usefulness, but I'll include it on the table anyway, since it's still something.
So, with neither Metamagic nor subclass features that require Sorcery Points, here is the current list of balance relevant features:
Wizard & Sorcerer Incomplete
Wizard
Flexibility: Much larger class spell list (110 more spells)
Flexibility: Potentially unlimited personal spellbooks
Flexibility: Up to 8 more spells prepared per day w/o rituals
Flexibility: Excellent Ritual Casting (currently 18 spells, currently up to 6th level)
Power: Ritual Casting (unlimited castings of various non-combat spells)
Power: (High Level) Spell Mastery (unlimited castings of choice of 1st and 2nd level spell)
Power: (High Level) Signature Spell is slightly better than Sorcerous Restoration
Sorcerer
Flexibility: An extra cantrip
Flexibility: Slightly more flexible spell slot configuration options
Flexibility: Up to 4 known spells from a greatly expanded list (196 extra options)
Power: A slightly better good save (Constitution)
You can't really see just
how much more flexible the wizard's spells availble in a day is without making a chart, but if they had all of the ritual spells for their level, they would have 9 more spells available than a sorcerer at 1st level, up to 26 more at 20th level, and that is including the extra spells I'm giving sorcerers. The extra spells for sorcerer coming from an expanded spell list seem to work really well here in emphasizing a difference between wizards and sorcerers. Sorcerers have a much more limited number of spells, but they have a broader choice of what a small number of those spells can be.
We definitely need that Metamagic. But before we add it in, I cannot emphasize enough that any usage of Sorcery Points for either Metamagic or subclass features is removing spell slots. It is a Power loss in that area (an area where wizards already dominate, and shouldn't), even while providing a Flexibility gain. The goal then is for Metamagic (and Sorcery Point dependant subclass abilities) to be functional without Sorcery Points, and yet have the option exist to use them more often with Sorcery Points, without having that overpower the class.
Twinned Spell is an outlier when it comes to Metamagic. You can spend more points on it and get greater benefit. It's kind of in a league of its own, so it probably should be treated as such. How about this form of Metamagic addendum:
3rd Level: Metamagic (addendum)
(add after second paragraph)
You can use each metamagic option and subclass feature you possess that requires sorcery points once without spending sorcery points, providing your usage would not cost more than 3 sorcery points. You cannot do so again with this feature until you finish a long rest.
That allows Metamagic (and those select subclass features) to be useful without sorcery points (which is what we're trying to do here). Since Twinned Spell is effectively an enhanced form of mimicking more spell slots, using Sorcery Points to get more powerful effects from it isn't really taking them away from their primary purpose of creating more spell slots. The particular cut off point looks good at 3 points. Let's add those features back into the list of sorcerer features. I'll classify using Sorcery Points to power additional uses of these features as sacrificing spell slots, because we've previously balanced those Sorcery Points as all going to spell slots.
With where we are at now, this Metamagic addendum can only give you up to 6 effective Sorcery Points at levels 3-9, and 8 effective Sorcery Points above that level. That's pretty minor overall. Other than at low level, it's significantly weaker than just granting Arcane Recovery.
Wizard & Sorcerer Reconstituted
Wizard
Flexibility: Much larger class spell list (110 more spells)
Flexibility: Potentially unlimited personal spellbooks
Flexibility: Up to 8 more spells prepared per day w/o rituals
Flexibility: Excellent Ritual Casting (currently 18 spells, currently up to 6th level)
Power: Ritual Casting (unlimited castings of various non-combat spells)
Power: (High Level) Spell Mastery (unlimited castings of choice of 1st and 2nd level spell)
Power: (High Level) Signature Spell is slightly better than Sorcerous Restoration
Sorcerer
Flexibility: An extra cantrip
Flexibility: Slightly more flexible spell slot configuration options
Flexibility: Up to 4 spells from a greatly expanded list (196 extra options)
Flexibility: Metamagic options
Flexibility: Additional subclass features
Flexibility: Can sacrifice spell slots for more Metamagic and subclass feature uses
Power: A slightly better good save (Constitution)
Power: Metamagic options
Power: Additional subclass features
At this point it's pretty subjective how to assess the balance. The wizard features I listed are each (with the exception of the last one) clearly strong features. Some of the sorcerer features I listed are pretty minor--I just put them on there so that they weren't forgotten. Sorcerer seems to be doing okay, though their 1/long rest Metamagic isn't nearly as strong as I was thinking it would be. Without ritual casting
at all they just can't stack up to the wizard's unlimited effective spell slots.
I think our best bet here, for both thematic and efficiency purposes, is to give them some at-will Metamagic. Thematically, as much as their "unmatched flexibility" with how they cast their limited spells is touted, it only works a limited number of times a day (even with my Metamagic addendum) and then that whole category of features just goes bye-bye. While most spellcasting features only work until you're out of slots, the wizard's features last that full time and then Ritual Casting still keeps going, while the sorcerer's ability to use Metamagic can (and probably will) run out before their spell slots do, leaving that class-defining set of features absent.
Here is where Sorcerous Affinity is designed to fit, and the balance is a bit tricky. Putting it at 3rd level allows for that thematic feature to immediately kick in, but it needs to limit which options it can apply to. I've gone with Careful Spell, Distant Spell, Extended Spell, and Subtle Spell, since those don't grant a major power increase. They do express flexibility well though. I'd like to add another in at 10th level. I think it might be worthwhile just disqualifying Twinned Spell entirely--since it already functions much like additional spell slots, and that would eliminate any concerns. So at 10th level pick any other one except Twinned to work 1/turn. You still can't apply more than 1/turn unless it's Empowered, I'm I'm going to disallow this feature to work on more than one per turn, so it's free Empowered or free something else. It's worth noting that this feature discourages taking front-loading all of the Metamagics considered most powerful, because you probably want to benefit from this feature, and you are limited in which ones can benefit from it.
At 18th-level Spell Mastery comes online, which is
really good. I don't see a problem with giving the sorcerer something good here also. At this point, they have 4 Metamagic options, and can use 2 of them 1/turn and 2 of them 1/long rest. How about moving the 1/long rest ones up to 1/short rest? For perspective, if they didn't have any 1/turn powers, this would grant them a maximum of 27 extra Sorcery Points worth of power once it kicked in, assuming they took all the most expensive options. So a little more than Arcane Recovery (equivalent to an extra 4th-level slot with either Arcane Recovery or Sorcery Points). But instead, we have some select 1/turn powers. I think that might work. 18th-level is competing with sorcerer subclass features, so I think moving it back one level to 17th when they are getting their final metamagic works. Some will object that it makes sorcerers too good to be able to toss out Metamagic like that. But when arguments are made in favor of how good sorcerers are, they almost always assume the sorcerer
is tossing out Metmagic like that all the time in a 5MWD--which isn't how the game is intended to be balanced. If sorcerers are at a good balance point tossing out their best Metamagic most rounds in a 5MWD, they they should be balanced tossing out level-gated Metamagic most rounds (your Metamagic still may not apply to a particular spell) in a normal 6-8 encounter, 2 short rests per long rest day.
I'm feeling a pretty good balance here. This sorcerer seems like it should play right. There's one more thing I neglected to do, and I think it should probably be added in--they should get to choose one of their cantrips from another spell list. Here's my revised proposals:
Revised Proposals
1st Level: Sorcerous Insight (new feature)
One of the cantrips you know at 1st level can be chosen from the bard, druid, sorcerer or wizard spell list, and is considered a sorcerer spell for you.
At 1st level, and again at 5th, 9th, and 15th level, your sorcerous insight grants you knowledge of an additional spell. Each of these spells can be chosen from the bard, druid, sorcerer, or wizard spell list. A chosen spell must be of a level you can cast, though you may replace them as normal when you gain a level. These spells are sorcerer spells for you.
3rd Level: Innate Power (new feature)
You can use each metamagic option and subclass feature you possess that requires sorcery points once without spending sorcery points, providing your usage would not cost more than 3 sorcery points. You cannot do so again with this feature until you finish a long rest.
Once you reach 17th level, you regain the ability to use this feature when you finish a short or long rest.
3rd Level: Metamagic Affinity (new feature)
Choose one of the following metamagic options: Careful Spell, Distant Spell, Extended Spell, or Subtle Spell. If you possess this metamagic option, you may use it once per turn without spending sorcery points.
When you reach 10th level, choose any other metamagic option you possess, except for Twinned Spell. You may use either metamagic option, if you possess it, once per turn without spending sorcery points.
That should make a satisfying sorcerer that plays differently from a wizard. If anything, it's even a bit
more different from a wizard than the RAW sorcerer. (The simpler version is to replace the second and third abilities with Arcane Recovery of double Sorcery Points, but I think I've given a pretty good reason why I find the extra complexity worth it.)
For some additional thoughts, we could examine what it would do to Draconic fire, and Divine Soul. For Draconic, Sorcerous Insight would let it pick up
produce flame and
firestorm, great spells for its theme. Innate Power won't boost them anymore than anyone else. They probably aren't going to get a lot out of Metamagic Affinity at 3rd level when it comes to their attack spells, because they'll probably be using something to let them dish out damage, like Quickened or Twinned, or Heightened, along with Empowered. Careful has some utility with Empowered if they want to, otherwise they have encouragement to take something that isn't about direct damage but can make them more interesting. At 10th level they can pick up anything but Twinned, and now most of their Sorcery Point sacrifices will be on the low cost altar of Empowered, leaving them with spell slots so they can do things like cast spells outside of combat. That doesn't seem problematic. It mostly allows them to have more of a magical presence outside of blasting their way through a 5MWD.
A Divine Soul already gets 86 spells added to their regular spell list, so this means that their four additional spells will have 240 extra options (over the standard sorcerer list) instead of 196. This is 62 spell options less than a bard can choose from with Magical Secrets (they don't get the paladin, ranger, or warlock lists), but quite respectable. However, I don't think it's a big problem, since they already had a crazy big spell list. It should work fairly similar to how it will work for other sorcerers, letting them pick up something that might be thematic but otherwise unavailable. Divine Soul is already so insane it's hard to break it more without trying, lol.
As long as this deeper dive took, I think it's worth it. With that dissection, I'm pretty convinced there isn't going to be a power issue (now that Twinned Spell has been curtailed).
Well, that's my current revised proposal.
