D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

[cbwjm]

The problem is comes from several issues:
First, sorcerers are presented as being masters at manipulating raw magic through metamagic that no others are supposed to be able to do yet the metamagic options are limited as the sorcerer does not get enough to not just pick the couple that are the best. Second, their spell list has some utility but nowhere near the other primary casters, to say nothing of that they dont have enough spells known to pick both them and thematically appropriate spells even if they did. And third, every other element *except* gold/red dragon sorcerers is lack luster due to most elements not having enough spell options, despite there being multiple archetypes of sorcerers devoted to elemental themes origins (dragon, storm, and arguable shadow as there are no shadow-themed spells outside of the one blade spell at 2nd level that are not homebrew). That altering a spell's elemental damage type isnt a metamagic is absolutely insane. As are origins that use spell points to activate their abilities while metamagic and creating spell slots use the same resource.

Fire sorcerers and Divine soul sorcerers are fine, great even. Lightning and shadow sorcerers are decent. Every other sorcerer build is lackluster at best. What annoys me most is that it's near impossible to roll a decent illusion or enchantment themed sorcerer despite the plethora of folklore surrounding sorceresses who do just that simply due to a lackluster and poorly thought out spell list.

I do agree that they could have had more elemental themed spells on the list, it's part of the reason why I opened up all thematic spells for a sorcerer's bloodline. As is though, altering spells has to be one of the easiest things in DnD. Burning hands and scorching ray could easily be themed for any other element. This may not be an option if you are playing AL, but in a home game, I'd be surprised if most DMs wouldn't allow it to be altered (mind you, from some of the horror stories I've read about DMs, maybe I shouldn't be surprised).

Sorcerers also have quite a few illusion and enchantment spells. Between the two schools, every spell level has at least 1 spell available to the sorcerer, most spell levels have more. If you did want to make one that focused on illusions exclusively though, then your spells are going to top out at 6th level.

I recall that mearl's mentioned that the activation of class abilities using sorcery points was something that rated quite poorly for the sorcerer which is probably why these abilities have been kept to a minimum for later bloodlines. Other than draconic which requires 5(!) points to activate their fear ability at 18th, I only spotted 2 others that spend sorcery points. Celestial which effectively gains an improved version of empowered spell for healing magic and shadow which allows you to cast darkness for 2 sorcery points which is effectively just casting it with a 2nd level spell slot anyway but with the added bonus of being able to see through the created effect.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

I do agree that they could have had more elemental themed spells on the list, it's part of the reason why I opened up all thematic spells for a sorcerer's bloodline. As is though, altering spells has to be one of the easiest things in DnD. Burning hands and scorching ray could easily be themed for any other element. This may not be an option if you are playing AL, but in a home game, I'd be surprised if most DMs wouldn't allow it to be altered (mind you, from some of the horror stories I've read about DMs, maybe I shouldn't be surprised).

I fully agree and any DM worth playing with will be open to allowing either a metamagic that changes the element, a player to pick any spell element (aka chromatic orb) for any evocation spell as a flat change, or learn alternative damage element versions of spells. This doesn't help with adventurers league though and that they dropped the ball on making a metamagic or a at least making a ranged cantrip ot every damage type for a class with a d6 health, low armor and where like 90% of all builds want to be at range is frankly frustrating.

Sorcerers also have quite a few illusion and enchantment spells. Between the two schools, every spell level has at least 1 spell available to the sorcerer, most spell levels have more. If you did want to make one that focused on illusions exclusively though, then your spells are going to top out at 6th level.

The issue isnt that they cant do it, it is that they...a charisma caster, are quite lack luster at it compared to the bard, warlock, or trickery cleric, or illusionist/enchanter wizard. The former two are at least understandable being charisma as well especially the hard whom is practically specialized at it, but the latter two are better purely due to a better spell list and subclasses devoted to it. We need a fae/hag/genie origin devoted to manipulated to beguiling people for the sorcerer in official print asap!

Additionally, this class despairity is only made even worse if you've a DM who likes to house rules that one can try to hide their spells by whispering, rolling deception checks, etc. as it directly steps on the toes of the ONE thing a manipulative sorcerer can actually do that's unique: cast spells without somatic/verbal components using subtle spell. Or even more frustrating if a DM likes to house houserule that a subtle spell can be counterspelled. While both are not problems for every table I have seen both in actual play more than once.

I recall that mearl's mentioned that the activation of class abilities using sorcery points was something that rated quite poorly for the sorcerer which is probably why these abilities have been kept to a minimum for later bloodlines. Other than draconic which requires 5(!) points to activate their fear ability at 18th, I only spotted 2 others that spend sorcery points. Celestial which effectively gains an improved version of empowered spell for healing magic and shadow which allows you to cast darkness for 2 sorcery points which is effectively just casting it with a 2nd level spell slot anyway but with the added bonus of being able to see through the created effect.

There is also the shadow hound ability from shadow sorcerer, and the 6th level dragon ability for gaining resistance to your element for an hour (a laughable ability considering that half of their sorcerer friendly races already have resistance to the element they'd be thematically inclined to take already). The latter should have been flat resistance or a point to gain immunity for a minute.

I also find it very odd that Devine soul does not get to pick between empowered healing or a respective but opposite damage ability, seeing as half of their proposed heritages come from questionably evil sources in final print. The concept of a chaotic evil fiendish sorcerer divine soul who specializes in damage spells and knows inflict wounds from their bloodline having empowered healing spells is kind of odd.

 

[CapnZapp]

In general online a lot of people claim that the Sorcerer is underpowered relative to the wizard. My counter argument is that the class is basically fine. At the guts of the argument IMHO is power vs versatility as the wizard can know more spells and in theory do more stuff.

All that may be true, but in a combat intensive game like D&D, all that pales in comparison to the Sorcerer's ability to nova.

So while a Wizard might have much more utility, and ultimately be the more satisfying spellcaster to play, it cannot kill off foes with the sheer brutality of a Sorcerer.

So underpowered my ass.

 

[Zardnaar]

All that may be true, but in a combat intensive game like D&D, all that pales in comparison to the Sorcerer's ability to nova.

So while a Wizard might have much more utility, and ultimately be the more satisfying spellcaster to play, it cannot kill off foes with the sheer brutality of a Sorcerer.

So underpowered my ass.

Well that to. I also have my doubts on the 6-8 encounters thing actually seeing use in that many tables, hell the WoTC adventures don't use it.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

All that may be true, but in a combat intensive game like D&D, all that pales in comparison to the Sorcerer's ability to nova.

So while a Wizard might have much more utility, and ultimately be the more satisfying spellcaster to play, it cannot kill off foes with the sheer brutality of a Sorcerer.

So underpowered my ass.

The Evocationist wizard begs to differ, albeit I'll concede we are mostly talking about higher levels that most tables never reach and while I'd never suggest that someone playing a wizard to blast is "doing it wrong", the class offers so much more in terms of utility and battlefield support. Still, as a pure focused blaster I'd wager sculpting your spells and a superior spell list are more fulfilling and practical in the longterm than the the ability to cast an extra cantrip in a round and give the party only half damage on your fireballs a limited amount of times per day, especially when both abilities compete for the same resource.

And while the the metamagic that grants an autosave to allies can be used for more than evocation, it is only evened out by a lackluster spell list and limited number of spells known, which is to say nothing of if it even happens before 10th level as the third metamagic, unless you're going to try to argue with me that a dedicated nova blaster sorcerer spec will have room for enough utility spells and wont take twin AND quicken at level 3 for both their metamagics. And at 10th level, we're at where overchannel will soon start coming into the conversation.

That all said. I agree that I dont think the sorcerer is in drastic need of help. The problem is that a few builds (fire sorcerer and Devine soul) are absolutely leaps and bounds ahead of all other builds due to lackluster options. This boring and frustrating as it pigeonholes players substantively more than any other class.

 

[CapnZapp]

The Evocationist wizard begs to differ, albeit I'll concede we are mostly talking about higher levels that most tables never reach and while I'd never suggest that someone playing a wizard to blast is "doing it wrong", the class offers so much more in terms of utility and battlefield support. Still, as a pure focused blaster I'd wager sculpting your spells and a superior spell list are more fulfilling and practical in the longterm than the the ability to cast an extra cantrip in a round and give the party only half damage on your fireballs a limited amount of times per day, especially when both abilities compete for the same resource.

And while the the metamagic that grants an autosave to allies can be used for more than evocation, it is only evened out by a lackluster spell list and limited number of spells known, which is to say nothing of if it even happens before 10th level as the third metamagic, unless you're going to try to argue with me that a dedicated nova blaster sorcerer spec will have room for enough utility spells and wont take twin AND quicken at level 3 for both their metamagics. And at 10th level, we're at where overchannel will soon start coming into the conversation.

That all said. I agree that I dont think the sorcerer is in drastic need of help. The problem is that a few builds (fire sorcerer and Devine soul) are absolutely leaps and bounds ahead of all other builds due to lackluster options. This boring and frustrating as it pigeonholes players substantively more than any other class.

I don't disagree the sorcerer class design is lacking (inflexible, etc).

I was merely emphasising what I felt Z didn't focus on enough: the Sorcerer's mad potential for nova damage. A Fireball and twinned Firebolts in the same round is CRAZY impressive.

That in itself is plenty in many campaigns.

That I would choose Wizard in any low-intensity campaign more about investigation than kicking down doors is a given. It's when the campaign favors brute damage the choice is less obvious, since it's less fun for a Wizard if their spell slots are needed for pure damage - sacrificing much of their wondrous flexibility and still coming up short compared to many other minmaxed build choices.

I think the Wizard's best friend might just be... a Sorcerer (or Warlock?) in the same party; negating any expectation on me casting simple damage spells in my slots, and allowing me to god-wizard my way to real glory

 

[CapnZapp]

Case in point - a real play example

My take on the King of Feathers encounter (from Tomb of Annihilation):

Spoiler

[SBLOCK]
My party is quite overleveled compared to the actual book, especially given their use of feats, multiclassing and magic items, so I knew I needed to make this encounter significantly harder to make it memorable. My solution: one King of Feathers for each hero!

I riffed off the text that said "legend says the King of Feathers is to be defeated in single combat", and decided that mystic powers would ensure that indeed single combat it would be. So as the party approached the amphitheater, they watched each other fade away, each entering their own pocket dimension, complete with buildings, dino, etc but no allies.

Mechanically it worked like this: from the POV of any given character, they were at the Ethereal Plane, with every other hero in their own version of the Material Plane.

This meant that if they were to ask about interacting with each other's King, I could keep it reasonably simple: force spells, see invisibility and so on would work just as if the ally and that ally's foes were ghosts to that hero. (They did not have access to Etherealness, which obviously would have short-circuited the mythic protections) In the end, it didn't matter much - everybody focused on their own dino (except the Monk, who just had eaten a disadvantage pyramid fruit you can read about in the ToA Companion by Power Score, and so mainly tried to stay out of range).

Anyway, to my point!

It became a race between the Sorcerer (a draconic fire single-class build) and the Paladin (multiclassed into Warlock, if you must know) who would defeat their King first, and thus claim the title "best hunter in the world". No other character stood a chance, when it came to the simple task of unloading everything you've got before you got bitten in half by the dino! The sorcerer was at death's door, but still killed her dino in the round it would have killed her. The paladin, meanwhile, wasn't even bloodied. They both finished their respective dino the very same round, so they got to share the bragging rights.

Ergo: Sorcerers are not underpowered. (Also ergo: Paladins are probably overpowered, but that's a different discussion!)

Inflexible, predictable, boring - maybe. But not underpowered.


[/SBLOCK]

 

[Seramus]

One second. I’ll reply after I finish casting dozens of rituals from my book.

 

[FrogReaver]

A basic wizard will likely have most of the following spell abilities:

1. AOE blasting
2. AOE control
3. Single Target Damage
4. Single Target Control
5. Defensive spells
6. Mobility Spells
7. Exploration Spells
8. Social Spells
9. Combat buff spells

A specific sorcerer on the other hand doesn't get enough slots to really do half the things mentioned above. Assuming one is making a sorcerer that will be as good or better in combat than a wizard then the sorcerer will want Shield and Absorb elements at least by the time you have enough spell slots that you can justify casting them, because if the sorcerer doesn't take those spells he will be a lot more fragile than any given wizard. This leaves the sorcerer to fewer spells known to worry about picking from.

I consider the level where you might be really interested in casting a defensive spell to be level 3 as you have enough spell slots to do some offense and defense if you want. So that means for this comparison the level 3 sorcerer is only going to have 2 spells to choose from. At least one of those needs to be a combat spell and likely both.

In short, a level 3 sorcerer doesn't have enough slots to do anything outside of combat if he's trying to keep up the wizard in combat. Metamagic doesn't offer anything of great use at this level either.

At level 5 there is a little improvement. If the sorcerer primarily relies on only 2 offensive combat spells then he now has 2 spells he can use for some kind of utility. He also gets enough sorcerery points and spell slots and spells that will function will with metamagic by this level to actually make metamagic somewhat meaningful.

However, keeping this in perspective the wizard by level 5 literally has at least 14 spells known. He can prepare about 9. That leaves him 3 extra spells he can cast than you (not counting his rituals). If he uses them for combat then he has a spell that will work great in almost any situation. Because of his rituals he keeps a lot of out of combat usefulness even while only keeping the same number of utility spells prepared as you.

Maybe later on, but by level 5 I don't see how anyone can claim the sorcerer is nearly as powerful as the wizard.

 

[CapnZapp]

Maybe later on, but by level 5 I don't see how anyone can claim the sorcerer is nearly as powerful as the wizard.

I don't know who made that claim, but my guess is by looking at "power" mainly as "killing power", and not including utility etc in "power".

In short: the sorcerer might fall short compared to a true wizard. But comes across as very strong compared to, say, an Archer Fighter. They don't just stand there, they shoot somebody; the Sorcerer just does it frighteningly well. And many more times than WotC wants to admit, there is no real cost involved.