Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk
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Cleon
Legend
Bearing in mind BECMI lycanthropes "can speak with normal animals of its weretype", shall we substitute a speak with animals ability that only works on rats?
They don't need the bonus to Charisma checks, since they have summon rats to produce controlled minions.
Good! I'll rough something up when I get the time.
Cleon
Legend
Shall we go with speak with rats then.
BECMI wererats are nasty chaotic evil monsters who eat rats and giant rats (and sometimes other wererats) when they don't have enough food from other sources.
That doesn't sound very empathic to me!
So, would the following be enough?
Speak With Rats (Su): A ratwere can communicate with rats and dire rats as if it had a permanent speak with animals spell. It can also use this ability to speak with other ratweres and wererats using this ability, which sounds like rodent squeaks and chirps.
If we want to keep the mechanical effects of Rat Empathy we can stick a racial bonus to Cha-based livestock skills in the Skill entry, e.g.:
Skills: Ratweres have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Climb, and Swim checks. Ratweres can use their Dexterity modifier or their Strength modifier for Climb and Swim checks, whichever is better.
A ratwere has a +4 racial bonus on Charisma-based skill checks against rats and dire rats.
In rat or hybrid-form, a ratwere gains a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb and Swim checks, even if rushed or threatened. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.
Cleon
Legend
That'd be OK. They can always devour rats they are controlling via their summon rodents power.
Updating the Ratwere Working Draft.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
The working draft has
Why not just Wis damage, which kills the wrong kind of creatures?
Disease (Su): Ratwere plague -- bite, Fortitude DC X, incubation period X, damage X Wis. Humans reduced to 0 Wis transform into Greater Wererats and regain lost Wis, Dire Rats reduced to 0 Wis transform into Ratweres and regain lost Wis, and other creatures reduced to 0 Wis die.
Want to put some conditions on for healing the disease beyond just making saves?
Why not just Wis damage, which kills the wrong kind of creatures?
Disease (Su): Ratwere plague -- bite, Fortitude DC X, incubation period X, damage X Wis. Humans reduced to 0 Wis transform into Greater Wererats and regain lost Wis, Dire Rats reduced to 0 Wis transform into Ratweres and regain lost Wis, and other creatures reduced to 0 Wis die.
Want to put some conditions on for healing the disease beyond just making saves?
Cleon
Legend
The BECMI version of lycanthropy was inevitable fatal/transformational unless it was magically cured, suggesting it's a "saves do not end disease" supernatural sickness like Mummy Rot.
It was also pretty hard to cure, requiring an 11th+ level cleric. That seems rather mean for a low-level monster though, so I'd entertain the idea of allowing weaker priests to cure it if they succeed at a level check low enough that 11th level clerics auto-roll it (e.g. remove disease with a DC 21 level check, or possibly DC 21 remove curse followed by remove disease.)
Cleon
Legend
'Cause I didn't think of it, that's why! I picked Con damage because that's the standard fatal-effect damage, it's as simple as that.
The original game makes no mention of the symptoms of wererat lycanthropy. The supplement Night Howlers (1992) has this to say:
Signs of lycanthropy appear in half that time. Aching joints, elongated teeth, and sudden hair growth are common symptoms. Restlessness, strange cravings, and stranger dreams inevitably plague the victim’s nights.
The victim may be cured if he can find help before lycanthropy runs its course and turns him into a full-fledged lycanthrope. A cleric of 11th level or greater can cure lycanthropy with a cure disease spell. Once a lycanthrope has undergone the first transformation to beast form, not even a wish is a guaranteed cure.
Demihumans learn from an early age that lycanthropy means death to them. Lycanthropy acts as a poison to elves, dwarves, halflings, and most humanoids (save vs. poison or be infected). A demihuman infected with lycanthropy immediately feels feverish and weak, suffering a –2 on all rolls to hit and on saving throws. He can survive for 1-6 days, during which the condition will worsen. A stricken character unable to find a cleric of 11th level or greater to cure the disease within that span will die.
The victim may be cured if he can find help before lycanthropy runs its course and turns him into a full-fledged lycanthrope. A cleric of 11th level or greater can cure lycanthropy with a cure disease spell. Once a lycanthrope has undergone the first transformation to beast form, not even a wish is a guaranteed cure.
Demihumans learn from an early age that lycanthropy means death to them. Lycanthropy acts as a poison to elves, dwarves, halflings, and most humanoids (save vs. poison or be infected). A demihuman infected with lycanthropy immediately feels feverish and weak, suffering a –2 on all rolls to hit and on saving throws. He can survive for 1-6 days, during which the condition will worsen. A stricken character unable to find a cleric of 11th level or greater to cure the disease within that span will die.
I guess "feverish and weak" could mean anything.
How about we have Wis damage for all types of victim, plus they're Sickened while the cursed disease is running its course? That'd match the -2 penalty of the PC4 description.
You might notice that Night Howlers says Lycanthropy kills demihumans in 1d6 days instead of the 2d12 days it takes to transform humans. All other BECMI sources say it takes the same time to affect demihumans as humans, so I would have the Wis damage be the same for both.
Oh, and in closing, the original 1977 Basic D&D version of lycanthropy did not put a caster level restriction on healing it - any cleric who could cast cure disease could remove it.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
I'm game to adding sickened. I'll also go along with requiring magic to end the disease. I think I'd prefer no level check, following the 1977 Basic version, but I'm open to discussion. I'm not sure, though, why you say DC 21 is auto-rolled by an 11th level cleric --- you can't take 10 on a caster level check.
Disease (Su): Ratwere plague -- bite, Fortitude DC X, incubation period X, damage X Wis. Creatures are sickened while they have Wisdome damage from this disease. Humans reduced to 0 Wis transform into Greater Wererats and regain lost Wis, Dire Rats reduced to 0 Wis transform into Ratweres and regain lost Wis, and other creatures reduced to 0 Wis die. Successful saving throws do not allow the character to recover (though they do prevent damage normally).
Disease (Su): Ratwere plague -- bite, Fortitude DC X, incubation period X, damage X Wis. Creatures are sickened while they have Wisdome damage from this disease. Humans reduced to 0 Wis transform into Greater Wererats and regain lost Wis, Dire Rats reduced to 0 Wis transform into Ratweres and regain lost Wis, and other creatures reduced to 0 Wis die. Successful saving throws do not allow the character to recover (though they do prevent damage normally).
Cleon
Legend
I don't remember what I was thinking with "auto" bit but if we do have a level check the DC ought to be about caster level+10. That'd follow precedents like injuries inflicted by an AD&D clay golem requiring a 17th+ level cleric to heal, while those wounds require a DC 26 level check to heal in 3E.
Although that'd suggest it ought to be a DC 20 level check.
That looks a good start. We can also borrow some stuff from thr Mummy Rot ability. e.g.:
Ratwere Plague (Su): Supernatural disease—slam, Fortitude DC 15, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Wis plus being sickened. The sickened condition last as long as the victim suffers Wisdom damage from this disease.
Unlike normal diseases, ratwere plague continues until the victim reaches Wisdom 0 (and is transformed into a lycanthrope or dies) or is cured by remove disease or similar magic.
Ratwere plague is a powerful curse, not a natural disease. A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell to remove the ratwere plague, or heal the Wisdom damage it causes, must succeed on a DC 20 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.
Afflicted humans reduced to 0 Wisdom transform into greater wererats, afflicted dire rats reduced to 0 Wis transform into ratweres, and other creatures reduced to 0 Wisdom die.
Cleon
Legend
Updating the Ratwere Working Draft.
I believe we're done with the special abilities now.
What do you fancy for Skills and Feats?
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
Urr, how many ranks are there left to spend in Skills?
Before dealing with feats, what do we want to do about DR? 10/silver in rat or hybrid form would be standard. Since these are "naturally rats," how about we switch things up and either do DR 10/silver (or even 5/silver based on HD) either in all forms or in human and hybrid forms?
Before dealing with feats, what do we want to do about DR? 10/silver in rat or hybrid form would be standard. Since these are "naturally rats," how about we switch things up and either do DR 10/silver (or even 5/silver based on HD) either in all forms or in human and hybrid forms?
Cleon
Legend
I haven't applied any skill ranks, the listed values in the Working Draft are just the creature's ability scores plus racial bonuses.
So we've got 12 skill points to apply.
That depends on the version of the BECMI Wererat. The Basic/RC version does not have weapon immunity in human form. The Night Prowler Wererat gains normal weapon immunity at higher levels (although it has a duration limit for this), but that's for a "Greater Wererat" rather than the "Lesser Wererat" we're currently converting.
They are also vulnerable to magic weapons, just like AD&D Wererats.
I'd also consider giving them DR/silver or magic instead of DR/silver to shake things up a bit. It also makes them easier to deal with, which somewhat balances out their nastier disease and better stats than a "stock" Wererat.
The big question is whether we make the DR a 5 or 10. I'm leaning towards the higher value, since they had complete weapon immunity originally.
So how about DR 10/magic or silver for the Ratwere in animal or hybrid form, and we give the Greater Wererat DR 5/silver in all forms and the Wererat Lord DR 10/silver in all forms?
Cleon
Legend
Good-oh. I'll bear it in mind with the next update.
Well, a standard Dire Rat has 4 skill ranks, distributed as Hide 1, Listen 1, Move Silently 1, Spot 1.
The Ratwere is a size bigger so misses out on a +4 size bonus to Hide. If we put 4 of its points into Hide to compensate, that'll leave us with 4. Maybe evenly distribute those between the Dire Rat's skills?
That maxes out its Hide skill. We could give it a higher Move Silently and reduce its sense skills so they're no better than a standard Dire Rat, I suppose.
Alternatively, we could reduce the Ratwere's sneakiness so it's as good as a Dire Rat rather than 1 point better and give it another point in either Climb & Swim OR Listen & Spot.
"Isometric Ratwere" Skill Ranks: Hide 6, Listen 2, Move Silently 2, and Spot 2.
"Stealthy Ratwere" Skill Ranks: Hide 6, Listen 1, Move Silently 4, and Spot 1.
"Athletic Ratwere" Skill Ranks: Climb 1, Hide 5, Listen 2, Move Silently 1, and Spot 2, Swim 1.
"Observant Ratwere" Skill Ranks: Hide 5, Listen 3, Move Silently 2, and Spot 3.
Which of those do you favour? I'd be OK with any of them, but I'm leaning toward the "Isometric Ratwere".
Cleon
Legend
Well regular rats have Stealthy in the SRD so I suppose that could fit.
It doesn't seem that useful when combined with the healthy option as its Hide and MS aren't maxed out. Its Hide only ends out 1 point higher than the Isometric or Sneaky options.
The SRD Wererat has Dodge but that's a useless feat.
How about Track like the Giant Zakharan Rat?
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