D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Maxperson]

The core Duelist PrC
And the Combat Expertise Feat required Int 13.

So then just the PRC. Combat Expertise was explicitly converting attack to AC(blocking with your weapon). It required a 13 Int to get, but it wasn't Int bonus to AC in any fashion.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No, that's experience.
That's my point. 5e took out the defense of Int to make it easy for new players to learn. But it was a dumbing down Anyone who fights knows smartscan be very important in fighting.

That how Floyd Mayweather made all his money. "On my turn I fight defensively."
Somehow he has high Int, high Con, meh Str and zero skill profieciencies.

You needed to be smart to analyze foes in 3e and 4e.
5e gives it to everyone. Further simplifying the fighter and limiting the other classes' ability in combat.

You use knowledge skills with int, that gives you information about foes. In 4e you could have absolutely terrible dex and still dodge things just fine. That was blatantly absurd.

 

[Minigiant]

Except I want to play a Battlemaster, not be a Battlemaster for 20 seconds a day! When a Battlemaster is out of superiority dice he basically has no subclass.

When a Warlord ran out of Encounter and Daily powers? they were STILL a Warlord because they had things they could do at-will that could still offer support!

Homebrew for my next campaign.

Fighter Class

1. Fighting Style, Second Wind
2. Action Surge (one use)
3. Fighting Style, Martial Archetype
4. Ability Score Improvement
5. Extra Attack

Weaponmaster Class

1. Fighting Style, Combat Superiority
2. Superior Technique (1 extra manevuer)
3. Superior Technique (1 extra dice) Martial Archetype
4. Ability Score Improvement
5. Extra Attack

Aristocrat Class

1. Expertise, Noble Arms
2. Fighting Style, Bonus Proficiency
3. Brains over Brawn, Martial Archetype
4. Ability Score Improvement
5. Extra Attack

 

[pemerton]

it makes imminently more sense to group things that make you move you body rapidly and accurate together, instead of grouping some of them with your ability to do maths.

I thought INT in 5e D&D was your ability to recall the lore of Arcana, History, Nature and Religion, and to recognise and draw inferences from clues?

That's a slightly arbitrary grouping - I watched an episode of Lewis last night, and the lead character had noticed a clue but needed someone else to tell him the bit of Hamlet that would let him make sense of it; conversely, what distinguishes Lewis's predecessor Morse is that he is not only a good detective but know art, music, poetry and literature. I also remember in a Holmes story that Watson remarks on Holmes's ignorance of general knowledge that is not relevant to solving crimes.

It gets even more arbitrary if we put maths in there: it's possible to be very good at the humanities and terrible at maths, and vice versa.

4e doesn't really address mathematical ability as best I recall - it's not really part of the game. When engineering has come up we've used Dungeoneering skill (which is based on Wisdom). The fact that INT covers both knowledge of lore (Arcana, History and Religion in 4e) and anticipation of attacks never caused any issues (and in some ways harked back to the AD&D Wu Jen's ability to get +3 to initiative 1x/day - "a burst of sudden action" that is made possible by "a strict regimen of mental training": OA p 25).

 

[pemerton]

You use knowledge skills with int, that gives you information about foes. In 4e you could have absolutely terrible dex and still dodge things just fine. That was blatantly absurd.

I don't see that as any different from the possibility, around since the beginning of D&D, of the character with 3 STR but 18 CON (or vice versa) - or 3 STR but 18 DEX for that matter.

That's just an artefact of the mutual independence of all the ability scores in the generation process.

 

[ECMO3]

When comparing class complexity, only the classes should be compared.

Champion is not a class.

If we are talking only about classes. Fighter gets over 3 times the features of wizards, not counting ASIs/feats which they also get more of.

Now spell casting is more complex than any of the fighter features or other wizard features for that matter, but it is one feature out of only 5 wizards get from levels 1-20. It is one of 3 they get before level 18 ... and that is if we use TCE, with PHB only; the wizard class only gets 2 features before level 18 (spell casting and arcane recovery).

 

[ECMO3]

Except I want to play a Battlemaster, not be a Battlemaster for 20 seconds a day! When a Battlemaster is out of superiority dice he basically has no subclass.

Where do you get 20 seconds a day?

A battlemaster can be a use a battlemaster maneuver for exactly 72 seconds a day at 3rd level, at 78 seconds a day at 7th level and 84 seconds a day at 15th level (assuming he gets short rests in accordance with the guidelines). Further with feat and fighting style choices he can add another 12 seconds a day to that number. At 15th level that is 96 seconds out of a total of roughly 120 seconds he should be fighting every day.

Any character with two feats or any player with a feat and a fighting style can be a battlemaster for 12 seconds a day if he wants to.

 

[Maxperson]

Champion is not a class.

We're comparing class + subclass. Only. This drow stuff and numbers of weapons ridiculousness isn't valid as a comparison.

If we are talking only about classes. Fighter gets over 3 times the features of wizards, not counting ASIs/feats which they also get more of.

It's not about the number of features. It's about the complexity of them. One Wizard feature outdoes the entire Fighter/Champion class several times over. That one incredibly complex feature is WHY wizards don't get that many features in total.

 

[ECMO3]

And I call bunk on your 'build any role'. You can't be a Defender with something that doesn't have a d10 HD, it's suicide and inneficient.

Absolutely you can. As a matter of fact you can do it with a 10 constitution and d6 hit dice. Try a bladesinger! That character will outlast anyone in melee and after 10th level he can outlast most martials even if the enemy starts throwing save for half damage spells.

In general by mid levels most enemies will have to roll a nat 20 with disadvantage to hit an optimized bladesinger in bladesong. With things like bracers of defense and a ring of protection you can push your effective AC to 30 AND at the same time impose disadvantage with protection from evil or blur while you have 3 duplicates running around with mirror image.

I have seen multiple bladesingers at my table go several levels in a row without getting HIT one single time in melee even though they were in melee every single fight. Before 10th level breath weapons and such can hurt them, but absorb elements goes a long way to mitigating even that.

Now it is a specific build to do that and such a character is not going to be able to do a lot of damage and can't really afford to use spells for damage if they are playing the defender role, but they can do it EASILY. The only thing close is a barbarian and he better have some healing between fights.

 

[ECMO3]

We're comparing class + subclass. Only. This drow stuff and numbers of weapons ridiculousness isn't valid as a comparison.

It's not about the number of features. It's about the complexity of them. One Wizard feature outdoes the entire Fighter/Champion class several times over. That one incredibly complex feature is WHY wizards don't get that many features in total.

A lot of features with low complexity can make for a character as complex as one with very complex feature. Managing all my wizard spells can be complex but remembering my wizard can cast spells and that they recharge on a long rest is easy. Remembering that my champion has action surge and second wind and indomitable and that he needs to crit on a 19 and remembering to recharge some of those on a short rest and remembering you can add half your proficiency when a DM calls for a skill check and rembering not only that the jumping rules are different for you but how they are different ...... That is a lot to keep track of.

Absolutely the race and feat options are valid because they are part of the character build. The argument is you can't make a complex champion and that is just not true. You can have a champion with a ton of different spell choices or a bunch of different skill choices or drive your build a number of other ways.

The thing with 5E is the race, subclass, background and feat combinations mean you can tailor any class to be any kind of character. The idea that fighters can't have any options other than swinging a sword is simply false and if you feel you can't do it then it is because you don't understand those options or you are unwilling to make the tradeoffs to get them.