D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

Should spellcasters be as effective as martial characters in combat?

  • 1. Yes, all classes should be evenly balanced for combat at each level.

    Votes: 11 5.3%
  • 2. Yes, spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat, but in a different way

    Votes: 111 53.9%
  • 3. No, martial characters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 49 23.8%
  • 4. No, spellcasters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • 5. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

    Votes: 27 13.1%

  • Poll closed .

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm not convinced Magic Hand could work if there wasn't some sort of feedback analogous to at least pressure sense. Ever try picking up something with a numb hand? How do you know when it's grasping firmly?
That doesn't seem like an unreasonable interpretation, but the spell doesn't include it, so it's essentially a house rule.
I mean 'it's magic, we don't have to explain it', but Mage hand is weird in a way D&D normally doesn't go otherwise. Does that mean it's like... a piece of an unseen servant that follows orders? That can't be it because the Arcane Trickster can use their personal skills through it.
Or maybe it conveys his skill to it. Either way, it's not going to let you take a specific object out of a container if you don't know where in the container it is.
 

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Yaarel

He Mage
Honestly giving Fighters more skills doesn't really achieve that much. The skill system in 5e is pretty awful. The random element overwhelms the actual skill to a significant degree.
The 5e skill system is as good as the DM gaming style.

I lean toward narrative adjudication and highly encourage improvisational skill "stunts".

I tend to get alot of mileage out of stunts. Also, at higher levels, I want to see characters building strongholds, founding schools, running towns, or so on, and their Background and skill set are part of these upper levels.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Looking thru the Tools list, and comparing to reallife warriors from various cultures: the Fighter should have official access to at least the following Tools:

Fighter Tools

• Alchemist (explosions, Greek fire, metallurgy)
• Brewers (morale)
• Calligraphers (knight, samurai, etcetera)
• Cartographers (maps, obviously)
• Cobblers (military marches)
• Cooks (morale)
• Leatherworkers (leather armor)
• Smiths (weapons and armor)
• Tinkers (general repairs and adhoc solutions)
• Woodcarver (bows and arrows, and passtime)
• Gaming (passtime)
• Herbalism (first aid, obviously)
• Musical (morale, passtime)
• Navigator (obviously)
• Vehicles (obviously)
And he does. A Battle Master gets an artisan tool proficiency at 3rd level. The others can be gotten through background, as most of those tools come from background anyway.
Wizards grow up learning magical skills, the way the elements of the world interact, cycles of nature, enchanting minds, how the body works while shapeshifting, the magical properties of certain plants, etcetera.

Wizards know zero about throwing daggers, or other martial training. Wizards fight with cantrips. If there is a Wizard who does wield a sword, there is a magical reason for it.
You keep saying that like it's an absolute fact. It would be stupid for Wizards to forgo basic training in something like daggers when there does exist areas and creatures where magic won't work. Such basic skills WOULD be taught to them. In fact, if you read books that include Wizards and apprentices, they usually do mundane practice on lots of things before they ever start learning magic skills.
The Fighter flavor includes reallife warriors who are known for formal aristocratic education, general life skills, and a resourcefulness that is vital during war.
Easily represented through the Fighter and Background skills + if feats are allowed, an ASI to pick up 3 more skills.
Backgrounds are great. I am talking about the Fighter class is about. This particular class needs more skills and tools, not only to actualize certain warrior character concepts, but also mechanically to better address noncombat pillars of the gaming engine.
You keep bringing up backgrounds, though, even if you don't mean to. The vast majority of tools on your tool list are from backgrounds, not the Fighter class. And you keep mentioning aristocratic education and the like, and those are backgrounds.
 



Vaalingrade

Legend
Either way, it's not going to let you take a specific object out of a container if you don't know where in the container it is.
This only makes me realize that there's no actual rules for blind pickpocketing and there never have been AFAIK. You always just get random stuff or the one thing you know is there. Everyone in D&D has Heisenberg Uncertainty Pockets.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This only makes me realize that there's no actual rules for blind pickpocketing and there never have been AFAIK. You always just get random stuff or the one thing you know is there. Everyone in D&D has Heisenberg Uncertainty Pockets.
Because it's just common sense that it would be that way. Neither the skill nor rogue ability confer omniscience on you in order to know what's where. There's a reason why thieves primarily target coin purses. They can see where the coins are and that's what they go for.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
That's pretty meaningless other than he shares that opinion.
An appeal to authority is only inappropriate if the authority is not relevant. The man who led the design team is a relevant authority, for exactly the same reason that (say) one would expect Lin-Manuel Miranda's opinion on the weak points of Hamilton to be relevant.

But that's the entire point. It's not supposed to be for people who want to do a lot of different things. That's its function. If you want to do a lot of stuff, don't be a Champion.

The only problems here are that 1) 4e failed miserably at balance. Some classes that were better than other classes at damage, control, etc., and 2) you're wrong. For two classes to be balanced, they have to be identical.
I'm sorry, what???

Who on EARTH said that two things have to be identical to be balance? And who on earth ever said 4e "failed miserably at balance"? Even its most ardent detractors, the people willing to completely invent random crap about it, recognized 4e's balance. I am completely baffled by these assertions. I emphatically, absolutely reject the idea that "balance" means being identical. People tout StarCraft, for example, as an excellent demonstration of "asymmetrical balance."

Rock paper scissors is partially asymmetrical ("x wins against y" is a non-transitive relation on the set of moves, but each player engages in the same gameplay loop), yet (by definition) perfectly balanced. No two moves are identical, yet each is perfectly balanced with every other, such that the only way to gain an advantage is to exploit player psychology and long-run behavior, because the rules themselves (again, by definition) prevent any such exploitation.

Once you give one class a different ability, it becomes better at some things and worse than others. The more different abilities you give the classes, the more those things shift and you will not end up with two classes that are equal. There will always be imbalance. The only thing that remains after that is how much imbalance is acceptable. 4e and 5e did pretty well keeping the imbalance in acceptable ranges.
Ooooooor...you could just use the actual, accepted definition of "balance," which is that "balance" includes the idea of acceptable ranges, because we're talking about statistics, rather than about precise equalities and perfect, diamond rules. And, as I said, I've run those numbers on things like the Champion, and they are not acceptable for it, for something specifically geared for doing damage and almost nothing else. The Champion does not even get up to 80% of the Battlemaster's damage output until you've had at least five reasonably-sized fights a day, and it takes 7-8 to actually be in the same ballpark. This is why it--in some restricted sense--is "bad." It has a clear purpose, dealing damage, and it is demonstrably bad at achieving that purpose relative to equivalent options (other Fighter subclasses) unless the 6-8 (combat!) encounters per day assumption is met. Since that assumption is generally not true of 5e games, this means players who want a low-engagement Fighter subclass are--statistically but consistently--shortchanged in a codifiable way compared to those who are comfortable with other Fighter subclasses.

As with any statistical thing, you have to set what reasonable bounds are. Fortunately, we have ready-made examples thereof, like the traditional alpha value (0.05, a 5% chance of committing a false-negative error) and standard deviations/z-scores, so these are not absolutely-arbitrary, "we invented a number that sounded nice" things, but rather ones with over a century (in some areas, pushing two centuries) of established use.

And yet if you google FFXIV classes, you will find some that are better at DPS than others. Some that are more versatile than others. And so on. They are not balanced, but like 3e and 4e, within the acceptable amount of imbalance.
Again: no, they absolutely are balanced, and people speak of them that way. People specifically call it "balanced." They do not call it "acceptably imbalanced." "Balance" is, was, and always will be a statistical concept in the gaming sphere, be it video games or tabletop games. People explicitly make comparisons between FFXIV and WoW, where there have been times where the developers simply straight-up tell players, "Play some other specialization of your class for the next three months, because this one is just not going to work," and where people have defended the ongoing major divergence between different classes with "balance is too hard to achieve, they couldn't possibly do better."

Honestly, I am so completely baffled by this perspective. No one uses "balance" to mean "absolutely identical things compared." It's not even what the ordinary non-game meaning of the word is! You can have three forces, none of which is equal in magnitude or direction to any of the others, but which together result in a balanced configuration.
 

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