Spoilers Angel 03/04

[WizarDru]

Sorry guys, but I just assumed that it was a given that Angel was getting his soul back just the how it was going to happen (and I didn't mention any of the how - I kinda skipped it myself). It's just that after arguing for my theory so hard I wanted to make sure that I set the record straight about it ASAP.

IceBear

Well, like I said, it was a freebie. I mean, it's not like I think that Angel is going to die, or that he won't get his soul back...but just don't go beyond that. I enjoy being suprised. I know one of my players knew about spoilers for the episode, and didn't enjoy it as much.

I'm a little jumpy about them ever since I read about a particularly monumentous event in Babylon 5 four days before the episode aired in our market...and then had to keep my mouth shut around my friends, all the while dreading what was to come, and knowing it was inevitable.

And we were only shown a pair of vampires being instantly burned alive...but it's a safe bet that dozens elsewhere were. Just curious how L.A. will define the whole event...just a crazy riot?

 

[KnowTheToe]

Buffy and her crew regularly forget to bring weapons. A fact that has always annoyed me. I believe Josh has lost his interest in Buffy, it would explain the lack of energy and the formula based episodes we have seen this season. I really can't wait for Buffy to end. I loved the first 3-3.5 seasons and have liked each season that followed less and less, but can't stop watching because I always hope some of the original magic will be captured.

 

[coyote6]

Dammit, that episode made me really want to watch a Faith spinoff.

My bet is (still) that Cordelia isn't Cordelia; Cordy ascended to a higher plane, was bored, worked her will on the universe to help out Angel. Then they just found her standing around the lobby, without memories; they went through the whole magical rigamarole to get her memories back (and that didn't work so well, either).

The person they found in the lobby was a double. An agent of the First, is my bet ('cause if you saw the last couple of episodes of Buffy, you know what the First currently wants to unleash, and wouldn't it be handy if the sun was out when the unleashing happens?), an agent that can mimic forms. Presumably, the fake Cordy got some memories from somewhere -- maybe she absorbed 'em from the people around her, maybe the spells the group did helped her.

IN any case, ever since then, she's been very subtly keeping the group apart, while appearing to be trying to bring them together. I first suspected her when she seduced Conner -- while Angel was conveniently able to catch them.

Meanwhile, the real Cordelia is still stuck in a Higher Plane, shrieking at everyone not to believe that imposter! (Unless this is Charisma Carpenter's last season, and Cordy's really dead or something.)

Now, Evil Cordy wasn't happy to see Faith -- was that unhappiness genuine, or an act? Is Faith's presence part of the plan, or an unexpected complication?

Related to that, about Wesley's conversation with Lilah -- all in his head, or The First, trying (and failing, utterly) to mess with his head? (Or maybe succeeding; after all, after that stuff about redemption, he decided to get Faith; now Faith is somewhere a bit easier to get at. Or corrupt.)

Oh, yeah, speaking of Faith -- the woman who tried to kill her in prison? Recognize the knife? Wasn't that the same kind of knife the Bringers have been using to kill Potential Slayers on Buffy? Who hired -- or forced, since she "had to do it" -- that woman to try to use that big old (not made in prison!) knife on Faith the Vampire Slayer? Who could it be, besides the First?

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

My bet is (still) that Cordelia isn't Cordelia; Cordy ascended to a higher plane, was bored, worked her will on the universe to help out Angel. Then they just found her standing around the lobby, without memories; they went through the whole magical rigamarole to get her memories back (and that didn't work so well, either).

You know, I agreed with the theory that Cordy never came back from the higher plane... but now I have my doubts. I mean, there were scenes with an amnesia-filled Cordy alone in her room going through piles of stuff and wistfully trying to figure out her past. That was an evil being? If she was evil, why not just tell Angel that she slept with Conner? That would driver them apart?

No, if she was evil this whole time, I think Joss didn't cover his tracks well enough. I'm now for the theory that it's the baby that's evil... I dunno.

Related to that, about Wesley's conversation with Lilah -- all in his head, or The First, trying (and failing, utterly) to mess with his head? (Or maybe succeeding; after all, after that stuff about redemption, he decided to get Faith; now Faith is somewhere a bit easier to get at. Or corrupt.)

My brother thought the same thing. No, that was just a dramtic device to get Wes to confront his feelings. Don't look into it too much.

Oh, yeah, speaking of Faith -- the woman who tried to kill her in prison? Recognize the knife? Wasn't that the same kind of knife the Bringers have been using to kill Potential Slayers on Buffy? Who hired -- or forced, since she "had to do it" -- that woman to try to use that big old (not made in prison!) knife on Faith the Vampire Slayer? Who could it be, besides the First?

Dude! I missed that! Are you sure? This would be the first evidence that evil going on in the two shows are related somehow (aside from Angelus calling Dawn, there's no connection at all between the shows). If this is true, that's cool.

Oh, and shame on IceBear... I liked having a small doubt in my head as to whether Angel was really Angelus! Sorry... just had to say it.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Didn't the prison lady say something about had to do it because of the money?

Also the lack of interaction between teh shows is disappointing.
I know Buffy is concentrating on the First, but no one noticed LA was sunless? No one called Angel?

Just seems silly.

 

[theT0rmented]

Didn't the prison lady say something about had to do it because of the money?

IIRC, she said she was doing it because she needed the money; it wasn't anything personal. So someone paid her big bucks to try and take out Faith.

Also the lack of interaction between teh shows is disappointing.
I know Buffy is concentrating on the First, but no one noticed LA was sunless? No one called Angel?

Well, not all of us watch Buffy. I don't. I've watched Angel for a couple of years now, but I've only watched a couple of episodes of Buffy. Just doesn't stick with me the way Angel does. You talk about about the "First".... I have no idea what/who that is.

Still think the idea that the baby is evil is sort of... stupid (for lack of a better word). Why the hell would the baby be evil and control Cordy? Conner isn't evil, tough he ain't exactly a knight in shinning armor. Cordy isn't evil either, so why would the baby be?

Maybe someone cast a spell on a baby?? Seems a stretch. Though I can't think of a good explanation. Oh well... guess we'll see what happens.

 

[coyote6]

Dude! I missed that! Are you sure?

Yeah. I just checked the tape of the Buffy episode where she frees Spike at the end -- the knife she's holding is a dead ringer for the one Faith's attacker had. Also, while fastforwarding through the tape, I stopped at a scene where a Bringer pulled out a couple of knives to go after Andrew -- same knives.

Then add in the way they purposefully showed the knife on Angel -- fairly close-up, IIRC, and definitely not the casual disdain they show for most weapons (the only weapons I can recall getting special attention have been either Plot Devices, or unique -- Gunn's hubcap axe, the tricked out crossbow, Wesley's extend-a-sword, etc.).

It was a Bringer knife, and a non-crossover crossover. Like Angelus calling Dawn.

(Oh, and hey, Angel knows Dawn! I know some people on the net have theorized about whether Angel & others were affected by the Insert-Dawn-Into-Reality spell those monks pulled off. Looks like he was. I wonder what Dawn & Faith's relationship will have been like. )

 

[DanMcS]

Oh, yeah, speaking of Faith -- the woman who tried to kill her in prison? Recognize the knife? Wasn't that the same kind of knife the Bringers have been using to kill Potential Slayers on Buffy? Who hired -- or forced, since she "had to do it" -- that woman to try to use that big old (not made in prison!) knife on Faith the Vampire Slayer? Who could it be, besides the First?

Yes, totally a Bringer knife. There have been subtle references to the sibling shows this whole season, in both Buffy and Angel. They've been building up, after a season or so of nearly no mention of each other at all. For instance, a couple episodes ago, Spike said something like "I'm a vampire with a soul. That's unique, well, sort of."

Buffy also said something about there being another slayer. And Wes and Fred mentioned the Orb of Thessa-mumblesomething and that Willow used it to put Angel's soul back once before.

I was so happy to see Faith. Hitting on Wes straight out of the box, heh. Then, "Stand back from the glass."

Angel's call to Dawn? Totally cool. Wonder if they'll mention it whenever the next new Buffy is.

And then the Beast getting killed with his own donated bit? That was awesome. I totally enjoyed this episode.

 

[coyote6]

I was so happy to see Faith. Hitting on Wes straight out of the box, heh. Then, "Stand back from the glass."

That was nice. Showing that the only reason Faith was in prison still was because she was allowing herself to be there, in an attempt at saving/redeeming herself -- all in no small part thanks to Angel's influence.

Angel's call to Dawn? Totally cool. Wonder if they'll mention it whenever the next new Buffy is.

March 25th, "Lies My Parents Told Me", if I'm not mistaken.

 

[IceBear]

I wasn't really watching the last(?) episode of Buffy (had it on, but had unexpected company so couldn't really watch it), but did the First control Wood for a second when he touched the seal? What was up with the students everyone was fighting? When the seal was deactivated they went back to normal, right? Does this show that the First can "possess" people with the right circumstances? If so, then it could be that the First is possessing the baby and using the baby to control Cordy. Just speculation.

As pointed out, Cordy didn't seem evil when she first returned, but obviously the Beast was around (and thus probably had a master) before she got pregnant. The First has been around since the beginning of time (at least I think so), so it is possible that the Beast knows that Cordy is just being possessed by the First. Anyway, given that the First tried to have Faith killed, Cordy is either an aspect of the First or an ally of the First.

IceBear