Stalker of Kharash - Code of Conduct

[Crust]

The Exalted Deeds book would say that murdering even Hitler is still murder, and thus evil. Even if the party cleric can ultimately cast resurrection on Hitler, murdering him is still evil.

In fact, I'm just throwing out my flawed code of conduct and handing all exalted PCs those first few chapters. Each of them will be expected to do what those pages say, and they'll also be expected to police the other PCs accordingly.

That's an interesting scenario you set up there. My players would lynch me if a natty 20 was a miss, but I see why you ran things the way you did.

As I mentioned above, when Reskyn yielded before Kragg (with the avatar of Malar... an evil deity... perched on a tree branch just above Reskyn, observing this clash of opposites), Reskyn said, "It is the will of Malar that I die." The player didn't hesitate for a second. He (Kragg) slew Reskyn. Not only did Kragg slay a foe who yielded (which is clearly evil by the Exalted Deeds book), he literally did the will of Malar while Malar was observing from above. The scenario was as clear as day, and the moral expectation should have been understood, but the player in question ignores those things. He just wants to dominate everything, wants to "own" everything, wants to "ice" everything. Mercy and morals are out of the question in a consequence-free environment. I set up the entire scenario with the assumption that the player would fall right into my moral trap, and he did, without hesitation. He argued, of course, but he's not going to be able to argue with the Exalted Deeds information.

And after all, by allowing Reskyn to live, he's missing out on experience, right? That's the Final Fantasy/Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights mentality that he can't shake, where everything that moves equals experience and gold pieces. Should I even award him experience for that?

I had looked through those first few chapters in the past, but now I see that every paragraph explains exactly what I want my exalted PCs to do. There are other players in the group with exalted feats, and they don't even test the boundaries of evil. Of course, those players aren't domineering alpha males who insist on teabagging any creature who raises a hand against them. The player in question needs to reign himself in and show some humility with his PC. He needs to role-play for once. Whether he's a werewolf or a gnome, all of his PCs are Conan-types who strike first and maybe ask questions if it leads to more experience. Those print outs will explain things, and it'll be the book we follow, not my "flawed" rules. The players can argue with me, can disbelieve my interpretations. That's not going to happen with the published material.

Thanks for your help, everyone. Feel free to chime in if I'm off base.

 

[robertliguori]

The Exalted Deeds book would say that murdering even Hitler is still murder, and thus evil. Even if the party cleric can ultimately cast resurrection on Hitler, murdering him is still evil.

In fact, I'm just throwing out my flawed code of conduct and handing all exalted PCs those first few chapters. Each of them will be expected to do what those pages say, and they'll also be expected to police the other PCs accordingly.

Domiel and his Slayers would take issue with this philosophy. Exalted Good is quite down with murder, under the right circumstances.

They're also down with inflicting horrible, tortuous fates on Evil critters (so long as the correct implements of suffering are used). They also think that mind flayers come in boy and girl varieties and that poison is Evil, so looking to Exalted for consistency to any of Good, good, or reason is not the greatest of ideas.

As I mentioned above, when Reskyn yielded before Kragg (with the avatar of Malar... an evil deity... perched on a tree branch just above Reskyn, observing this clash of opposites), Reskyn said, "It is the will of Malar that I die." The player didn't hesitate for a second. He (Kragg) slew Reskyn. Not only did Kragg slay a foe who yielded (which is clearly evil by the Exalted Deeds book), he literally did the will of Malar while Malar was observing from above. The scenario was as clear as day, and the moral expectation should have been understood, but the player in question ignores those things. He just wants to dominate everything, wants to "own" everything, wants to "ice" everything. Mercy and morals are out of the question in a consequence-free environment. I set up the entire scenario with the assumption that the player would fall right into my moral trap, and he did, without hesitation. He argued, of course, but he's not going to be able to argue with the Exalted Deeds information.

So, it was the will of Malar that Reskyn die.

So what?

It's probably the will of Malar that gravity pulls objects down instead of sideways. That doesn't mean inverting gravity is good.

Moreover, this is D&D. In reality, we can slap a pair of shackles on a person, and pretty much neutralize the damage they can cause as an individual. We can take someone prisoner without a great deal of risk. In D&D, this is up there with atheism in the Realms in terms of poorly-justified beliefs. Finally, the person they're trying to take prisoner is a shapeshifter, who ranks just under psionicist in terms of royal headache to keep locked up. There is every possibility that Mr. Black Blood could escape and go eat/infect a few villages. Things that keep that from happening are pretty much Good. If Mr. Black Blood has so far displayed honor and a tendency to keep his word, then it can be an individual call whether to honor his surrender or not, but he is not in the position of a captured human in our world, and treating the two situations as morally-equivalent misses a whole lotta point.

And after all, by allowing Reskyn to live, he's missing out on experience, right? That's the Final Fantasy/Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights mentality that he can't shake, where everything that moves equals experience and gold pieces. Should I even award him experience for that?

There was an evil monster. There is now a lack of an evil monster. There is now a lack of on opportunity to turn the evil monster into a good monster. There is now an opportunity to turn the dead evil monster into an undead evil monster. Just sayin'.

I had looked through those first few chapters in the past, but now I see that every paragraph explains exactly what I want my exalted PCs to do. There are other players in the group with exalted feats, and they don't even test the boundaries of evil. Of course, those players aren't domineering alpha males who insist on teabagging any creature who raises a hand against them. The player in question needs to reign himself in and show some humility with his PC. He needs to role-play for once. Whether he's a werewolf or a gnome, all of his PCs are Conan-types who strike first and maybe ask questions if it leads to more experience. Those print outs will explain things, and it'll be the book we follow, not my "flawed" rules. The players can argue with me, can disbelieve my interpretations. That's not going to happen with the published material.

Thanks for your help, everyone. Feel free to chime in if I'm off base.

You know, being a Conan-type is roleplaying, it's just playing a role you don't want him playing. Is the problem that he's wandered off what you considered Exalted? Would you have a problem with him replying "Fine. I'll work Malar's will. Just trade in these levels...OK. I'm an evil scary werewolf. Yar. Now let's go eat some baddies." and continuing on his current path, but with an E on his character sheet instead of a G?

If no, then you have a quick and simple solution. "The cosmology of the world says you are evil. Feel free to tell the cosmology of the world to go stuff itself. You will have the standard cosmological consequences of being evil, etc., etc."

If yes, stop saying "Killing surrendered foes is nonExalted." and say flat-out "I have a problem with you killing surrendered foes in-game."

 

[Starbuck_II]

And after all, by allowing Reskyn to live, he's missing out on experience, right? That's the Final Fantasy/Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights mentality that he can't shake, where everything that moves equals experience and gold pieces. Should I even award him experience for that?

What does Buldar's gate have to do with killing evil? I'm sorry, but that is whack.

This isn't a Hack/slash issue, but a good killing issue. You don't think good can kill. He does. You might know that Slayer of Domiel is another prestige class that has Death Attack in Book of Exalted Deeds. That shows that Exalted good can kill.

 

[Crust]

Thanks for the replies. Let me take some time to reply as best as I can. I know I'm typing a lot here. Please bear with me:

Domiel and his Slayers would take issue with this philosophy. Exalted Good is quite down with murder, under the right circumstances.

Given the right circumstances, "slaying an evil foe" is justified, but in terms of the Exalted Deeds book, "murder" is never right. The difference is clearly explained in the book.

You, players, and I might have conflicting ideas about what's right and wrong, but the Exalted Deeds book ends all arguments, at least at my table. I've decided to stand by the published material.

They're also down with inflicting horrible, tortuous fates on Evil critters (so long as the correct implements of suffering are used).

In terms of the Exalted Deeds book, in particular the first couple chapters, this is simply not true. It's clearly stated that torture is out of the question for a PC with exalted feats, spells, or a PrC let alone horrible torture and deliberate suffering. Take a look.

They also think that mind flayers come in boy and girl varieties and that poison is Evil, so looking to Exalted for consistency to any of Good, good, or reason is not the greatest of ideas.

I see consistency in the text. The only creatures that can be given no quarter are 99.9% of undead (there are good-aligned liches out there), evil outsiders, and in most cases chromatic dragons. Even beholders, mind flayers, and drow elves have the potential for redemption. In fact, a mind flayer is used as an example of a redeemed evil foe. If such a foe throws down his/her/its weapons and/or submits in some clear way, an exalted PC must yield or lose his exalted benefits. There are ways around killing when killing isn't necessary. An exalted PC must understand this in order to make use of the spells, feats, ad PrCs in the book.

So, it was the will of Malar that Reskyn die.

So what?

I guess you had to be there. The "will of Malar" angle was for storytelling purposes. The fact that Kragg killed a foe who had yielded is evil, which is the real problem. Malar's presence and desires were only a mechanism to convey the idea that the "powers" are watching.

It's probably the will of Malar that gravity pulls objects down instead of sideways. That doesn't mean inverting gravity is good.

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't see the logic here. There's nothing good or evil about gravity. That aside, following the will of any evil deity, be it Bane, Cyric, Shar, or Malar is something an exalted character must avoid, but like I said, the real problem was not showing mercy.

Moreover, this is D&D. In reality, we can slap a pair of shackles on a person, and pretty much neutralize the damage they can cause as an individual. We can take someone prisoner without a great deal of risk. In D&D, this is up there with atheism in the Realms in terms of poorly justified beliefs.

I set up the scenario knowing full well that the player would give in to his Final Fantasy/video game RPG mentality of "killing equals XP." It would have been better, as an exalted PC, to show mercy and attempt to redeem the lost soul rather than snuff out his life. Such an act of mercy would certainly warrant XP and perhaps additional rewards, such as the redeemed NPC becoming an ally of the party or perhaps a member of the party. Killing targets isn't the only way to earn XP.

Sure, the player in question would rather take the chance to roll a natty 20 and own the weakling and marvel over the amount of damage he dealt, but that's not what is expected from an exalted PC. It's right there in the book.

Finally, the person they're trying to take prisoner is a shapeshifter, who ranks just under psionicist in terms of royal headache to keep locked up. There is every possibility that Mr. Black Blood could escape and go eat/infect a few villages. Things that keep that from happening are pretty much Good.

Werewolfs aren't that difficult to restrain, really. Further, "the ends justify the means," especially when the means--murdering a foe who has yielded and desires mercy--is wholly evil. This is clearly explained in the Exalted Deeds book.

If Mr. Black Blood has so far displayed honor and a tendency to keep his word, then it can be an individual call whether to honor his surrender or not, but he is not in the position of a captured human in our world, and treating the two situations as morally-equivalent misses a whole lotta point.

I'm not trying to compare the situation to a real-world event. I don't think the comparison is relevant, since in our world, there is no concrete, measurable evidence that "powers" are watching and governing our behavior or that good and evil exist in the person or in the action. In the real world, that's a personal matter of faith and belief. In D&D, good and evil are less abstract. Spells like holy smite and blasphemy, creatures like demons and devas, and places like Baator and Mt. Celestial show that.

There was an evil monster. There is now a lack of an evil monster. There is now a lack of on opportunity to turn the evil monster into a good monster. There is now an opportunity to turn the dead evil monster into an undead evil monster. Just sayin'.

Malar snatched the body and bounded away, so what happens with Reskyn's body is up to Malar. Perhaps Reskyn will be resurrected and made even more powerful than he was in life and sent back to the Material to continue hunting Kragg. Even if that were to happen, and Reskyn would once again ask for mercy, an exalted PC would have to give it. No matter the long-term effects, murder is still murder, and murder is always evil (as is stated in the Exalted Deeds book). Now, if Reskyn were to fight to the death, then Kragg would be justified in defending himself. Killing would be his only choice, unless he would rather die himself.

You know, being a Conan-type is roleplaying, it's just playing a role you don't want him playing.

Conan is not an exalted character, and therefore, the player in question should not be role-playing his PC as a Conan type. I want him to adhere to the proper code of conduct as is laid down in the Exalted Deeds book. It's not simply that I want the player to just do what I say simply because I said it.

But when it comes down to it, as DM, I'm the one in control. My players understand that. In the sad event that one of my players can't abide by the code of conduct laid down in the book, then we have a problem. I have faith that my players are mature enough to understand my true intent: to find fair balance. The Exalted Deeds book allows for enormous power (like dealing 300-400+ damage to evil foes in one blow), and the balance comes with the code.

Is the problem that he's wandered off what you considered Exalted?

Not what I consider exalted. What The Book of Exalted Deeds states is exalted.

Would you have a problem with him replying "Fine. I'll work Malar's will. Just trade in these levels...OK. I'm an evil scary werewolf. Yar. Now let's go eat some baddies." and continuing on his current path, but with an E on his character sheet instead of a G?

Well, that was never really an option, for the player to just become evil. The player would never voluntarily do the will of Malar if he knew he was doing the will of Malar. Either the player wasn't paying attention, wasn't listening, or just didn't care about my role-playing element, and just went ahead and rolled his d20 and committed an evil act when he should have shown mercy (as is explained in the Exalted Deeds book).

He was penalized, whatever the real reasons for his brash actions. It's up to the player how he interprets events, and I've talked to him about this. I've told him about the possibility that he is, on some level, an agent of Malar now, since he's bestial, he's a hunter, and he's committed an evil act. That's a matter of interpretation that lends depth to the campaign, in the same way that some (including certain drow priestesses) might consider Drizzt do'Urden an agent of Lolth due to the chaos he sows in Menzoberranzan.

The penalty is by no means permanent. This is the time when he's learning what Selune and Kharash expect in terms of the Exalted Deeds book. When Selune (and, of course, I) feel his PC is ready to walk the exalted path fully with clear understanding, he'll be back to normal, able to shift into humanoid form. I'm also going to offer him the option of becoming a full-blooded werewolf for successful atonement.

If no, then you have a quick and simple solution. "The cosmology of the world says you are evil. Feel free to tell the cosmology of the world to go stuff itself. You will have the standard cosmological consequences of being evil, etc., etc."

If yes, stop saying "Killing surrendered foes is nonExalted." and say flat-out "I have a problem with you killing surrendered foes in-game."

Right. This is the place we're at now. We're playing tomorrow, and I'm handing out printouts of the first couple chapters of the Exalted Deeds book so there's no confusion. My players can argue with me for days about what is and what isn't evil. They're not going to be able to argue with the printouts.

Starbuck,

My reference to Baldur's Gate (or Final Fantasy or Neverwinter Nights or Dragon Warrior or Oblivion, etc.) suggests that some of my players don't consider alignment (or the fact that they have exalted feats and classes) when taking actions, just like they don't consider alignment or conduct when building a PC in a computer game unless it's a prerequisite for a feat, class, or PrC. Some of my players just want to do whatever they want, and every encounter must end with kills. For exalted PCs, that's unacceptable.

Take Grand Theft Auto for example. Do you obey traffic laws and conduct yourself as a good citizen, or do you freely run down pedestrians, shoot innocent people, and use the cheat codes to wipe away your wanted level? Does it matter? There are no real consequences in the video game. However, an exalted PC must abide by the code of conduct outlined in the text.

The slayer of Domiel might have the death attack class skill, but that does not mean that the slayer of Domiel can just go around attacking and killing evil creatures on sight. That goes against everything that is laid down in The Book of Exalted Deeds. That mentality is what I call the Baldur's Gate/Final Fantasy/Neverwinter Nights/(insert video game RPG here) mentality, where class skills, feats, and spells can be used in any manner in order to get more XP and treasure.

 

[Asha'man]

Crust, could you do me a favor? My game also features a good werewolf of Selune who has a rivalry with the People of the Black Blood. Could you please post the stat block for Ruskin (and ideally, Kragg)? I'd love to have them as NPCs in my game.

As for your problem, it seems to me that this isn't an issue that can be settled in-game. He has shown repeatedly that the two of you have completely incompatible views on what it means to be Exalted. While I personally use the BOED and BOVD minimally (and almost never for my PCs, since they are usually flawed heroes at best), I've read enough of it that I think you have a problem. Bluntly put, the moral pronouncements of the BOED are often very dubious, and sometimes outright contradictory or silly. Print-outs from the book are not very likely to illuminate an alignment debate. You can still use the book, but it requires a lot of adjudication and discussion of what Exalted means for the purposes of any given game. Possibly even any given character, which might be an interesting angle: Some patrons of Exalted characters might require different things from their followers and have different views on the justice/mercy dichotomy. But I'm rambling.

To return to your game: It is important not to make it *too* onerous for PCs to maintain exalted status, to the point where the character becomes unplayable in a regular party. For example, your comments that Kragg should give mercy again and again even if Ruskin returns as the unrepentant instrument of Malar seems like they would require all exalted characters to be unreasonably trusting and unable to effectively combat evil. (Which last is after all the primary purpose of a Stalker of Kharrash.)

What I'd do, as some have suggested, is to ask him "Your character is Exalted, a devoted follower of Selune and Kharrash. What do *you* think that means?" If the discussion is fruitful and you end up with sufficient common ground you can agree on, continue playing, and introduce any further consequences of evil or errant actions through role-playing (robertliguori's druid suggestion was good, I thought). If you find that you don't see eye to eye on important issues, or that he just doesn't care, tell him "Our views on what Exalted means are incompatible, to the extent I don't think you should play an Exalted character in a game I DM. It will only lead to problems and arguments" and either write his character out in favor of a new one or have him change his ethos so he's no longer bound by any codes you (that's you plural) can't handle. You've said you want him to "learn something" from this as a player, but I think that's wrongheaded and only likely to lead to bad blood or trouble. It's D&D, not a psychology session. A fun game for all concerned (Including you, obviously, but him, too) is far more important and apropos.

Summary of wall of text: Either he understands exalted and just does it wrong (possibly intentionally, even) or (as sounds far more likely) you have completely incompatible ideas of Exalted, so much so that he shouldn't be playing Exalted in your games. If the latter, he won't enjoy a game of trying to live up to your code, and should change or switch characters so the game can stay enjoyable for everyone.

 

[Crust]

Asha'man,

Thanks for the reply. I'll post more about Kragg and Reskyn later today when I have some more time.

You're right about a lot of things. I handed out those printouts yesterday, and the discussion kicked in almost immediately concerning contradictory accounts of what is good and what is not. The section on mercy was particularly interesting, and by the end of the day, my views changed concerning my above expectations. In fact, I have no intention of doing what I suggest above. It's merely a hypothetical situation. For a DM to insist on mercy every time so that the NPC can constantly screw with the party is a very underhanded expectation. I can't do that. If PCs show mercy, I have to reward them, whether through XP or the potential addition of an ally or NPC.

I've also learned that I'm just going to have to bend in many situations. When it comes down to it, I don't want to waste any time in a verbal sparring concerning behavior. In extreme cases (like intentionally slaying a PC because he/she is magically compelled), I might have to just keep my mouth shut and let the guys play. Even in the event that I disagree with behavior, it might be better to quietly make a note and use that event to shape the progression of the story.

I have to meet them halfway in certain instances. Hopefully, the printouts will at least give them a semi-concrete idea of what I expect. We'll see what happens.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I've also learned that I'm just going to have to bend in many situations. When it comes down to it, I don't want to waste any time in a verbal sparring concerning behavior. In extreme cases (like intentionally slaying a PC because he/she is magically compelled), I might have to just keep my mouth shut and let the guys play. Even in the event that I disagree with behavior, it might be better to quietly make a note and use that event to shape the progression of the story.

Thanks for the feedback.

Wait, by magically compelled?
Do you mean Charmed or Dominated?
If Charmed... does the dude know he can use nonlethal (not many players remember that)? I always beat down on my friends with nonlethal when charmed (after all, I would never kill a friend if I had the chance).

 

[Crust]

Starbuck,

The case in point is described above concerning the evil sword. Take a look.

Asha'man,

I don't have Kragg's character sheet, and I don't have Reskyn completely built. I just have him in note form for encounter purposes. I suppose you can add ability scores and skill ranks as you see fit. Individual class abilities can be found in the sourcebooks, of course.

In fact, I took the character Reskyn the Fanged loosely from the Waterdeep sourcebook. He's a member of the Blue Elk barbarian tribe of thugs operating primarily in Waterdeep's Dock Ward. I added everything else on top of the name and race, and I changed his class levels.

Kragg - NG male half-orc afflicted werewolf ranger 6/warshaper 2/stalker of Kharash 6 (currently cursed by Selune to suffer only wolf form until atonement is realized).

Kragg took the three ranger class variations from Complete Champion: champion of the wild (which explains his additional bonus feats), spiritual connection, and spiritual guide. His favored enemies are undead, contructs, and evil. He is about to take his first level in kensai (Com. War.), using his claws as his chosen weapons.

Feats include:
Power attack
Favored power attack (Com. War.)
Two-weapon fighting (B - ranger)
Endurance (B - ranger)
Favored of the companions (BoED)
Nemesis (BoED)
Weapon focus (claws)
Iron will (B - lycanthrope)
Combat expertise (B - champion of the wild)
Improved trip (B - champion of the wild)
Improved two-weapon fighting (B - champion of the wild)
Greater two-weapon fighting (B - champion of the wild)

Reskyn the Fanged - CE male half-orc true werewolf ranger 5/warshaper 4/black blood hunter 6. Favored enemies are elves and humans.

Feats include:
Power attack
Two-weapon fighting (B - ranger)
Endurance (B - ranger)
Iron will (B - lycanthrope)
Leap attack (Com. Adv.)
Favored power attack
Vile natural attack (BoVD)
Improved critical (claws)
Improved natural attack (claws)

Kragg and Reskyn also have their individual "sponsors" or mentors connected to their respective deities, both of whom try to guide their lycanthrope mentees down the proper path as is dictated by their gods. Kragg's mentor is Kiara, a LG female human cleric of Selune 14. Reskyn's mentor was (before he was killed) the Huntmistress Dhusarra, another Waterdeep personality, who I took from the Vampires of Waterdeep adventure path starting with Dungeon #126's "Blood of Malar." She's a CE female human vampire fighter 4/cleric of Malar 9.

I enjoy taking pieces from several sources and blending them together. The "Blood of Malar" module involves Dhusarra and her Wolf Pack on the hunt, and when the PCs get involved, they become the hunted. I thought it only made sense to include Reskyn the Fanged as the semi-subordinate to Dhusarra and Artor Morlin (another Waterdeep personality who appears in Dungeon #128's "The Fireplace Level"), especially since Reskyn seemed like the perfect mirror opposite for Kragg, giving the exalted PC a proper vile foe.

Of course, since Kragg slew Reskyn without mercy, it's easy for me to joke about how Kragg is the new tool of Malar. I thoroughly enjoy it.

Let me know if you have other questions.

 

[irdeggman]

So Kragg is an ECL 19 character now correct?

Class levels (6+2+6) + racial hit dice (+2) + LA (+3).

That pretty much means 1 level until epic for xp advancement purposes.

As I understand it as soon as he gains the werewolf template he gets 2 racial hit dice and the +3 LA - which would immediately place him 5 levels higher in power than the other PCs. One reason I hate that system and would instead use the Savage Progressions system from the WotC site for handling such a sudden "gain" to keep things "balanced".

 

[Crust]

So Kragg is an ECL 19 character now correct?

Class levels (6+2+6) + racial hit dice (+2) + LA (+3).

That pretty much means 1 level until epic for xp advancement purposes.

As I understand it as soon as he gains the werewolf template he gets 2 racial hit dice and the +3 LA - which would immediately place him 5 levels higher in power than the other PCs. One reason I hate that system and would instead use the Savage Progressions system from the WotC site for handling such a sudden "gain" to keep things "balanced".

The afflicted werewolf is +2 LA. I also tweaked things. When he became a werewolf, I removed two levels of ranger and replaced them with 2 HD of werewolf in an attempt to even things out.

The other PCs have their own benefits as well, most the result of in-game scenarios:

-The human male rogue/invisible blade is also a shade (+5 LA with the errata).
-The lizardfolk male druid is also draconic.
-The human male monk/ninja has a special ninjitsu tattoo built around his feat selection and class abilities that allows a variety supernatural abilities.
-The elf male scout/deepwood sniper/wizard/arcane archer has a wide array of non-lethal arrows that allow a variety of utilities.
-The elf male wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil/fatespinner/master specialist... well, the player made an awesome build using a variety of books, uses clutch spells from the Spell Compendium, and is the most-powerful member of the party.
-Another player runs a male gloura (from Underdark) bard/sublime chord, and is a skill monkey with AC in the low 40s-upper 50s...

Kragg might be powerful, but he's not the most powerful.