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Star Trek Star Trek, Paramount+, and a Defense of the Greatest Star Trek Captain

Staffan

Legend
He caused a lot of death, though. The Borg found the Federation because of him.
Not really. The Borg already knew of the Federation because of the Hansens' expedition (which was about 10 years before the Enterprise-D encountered the Borg) as well as the subspace message sent by the remnants of the First Contact Borg when encountered by NX-01 (which should have reached its Delta Quadrant destination at about the same time as the Hansens were assimilated – it's a bit inexact since the subspace message was sent in 2153 and would take "about 200 years" to reach its target, and the Hansens encountered the Borg in 2356). So what Q did was warn the Federation about the Borg (in the guise of taking them down a peg by showing them a much superior foe), thus giving them a fighting chance.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not really. The Borg already knew of the Federation because of the Hansens' expedition (which was about 10 years before the Enterprise-D encountered the Borg) as well as the subspace message sent by the remnants of the First Contact Borg when encountered by NX-01 (which should have reached its Delta Quadrant destination at about the same time as the Hansens were assimilated – it's a bit inexact since the subspace message was sent in 2153 and would take "about 200 years" to reach its target, and the Hansens encountered the Borg in 2356). So what Q did was warn the Federation about the Borg (in the guise of taking them down a peg by showing them a much superior foe), thus giving them a fighting chance.
Was this some sort of retcon that happened after the episode where he exposed the Federation to the Borg?
 

MarkB

Legend
Not really. The Borg already knew of the Federation because of the Hansens' expedition (which was about 10 years before the Enterprise-D encountered the Borg) as well as the subspace message sent by the remnants of the First Contact Borg when encountered by NX-01 (which should have reached its Delta Quadrant destination at about the same time as the Hansens were assimilated – it's a bit inexact since the subspace message was sent in 2153 and would take "about 200 years" to reach its target, and the Hansens encountered the Borg in 2356). So what Q did was warn the Federation about the Borg (in the guise of taking them down a peg by showing them a much superior foe), thus giving them a fighting chance.
More to the point, they'd already been buzzing around Federation territory. Colonies started disappearing along the Federation / Romulan neutral zone some time before Q sent the Enterprise into the Delta quadrant, and that was eventually concluded to have been the work of the Borg.
 

Staffan

Legend
Was this some sort of retcon that happened after the episode where he exposed the Federation to the Borg?
Yes, in Voyager and later Enterprise.

In Voyager, we learn that the Federation in ~2350 have heard rumors about something called the Borg, but nothing concrete. Still, they send out a small long-range ship crewed by a husband/wife couple, who bring their young daughter along. The ship has some sort of stealth thing (though not a full cloak), eventually run into a Borg cube and follow it through a transwarp tunnel to the Delta Quadrant. They keep stealthing about and learning more things about the Borg until an ion storm briefly disables their stealth system, exposing them to the Borg. And of course the Borg assimilate them. The daughter is Annika Hansen, who would become Seven of Nine as a Borg drone.

In Enterprise, an arctic expedition finds and awakens some Borg drones who got frozen there during First Contact. Hijinx ensue, the Enterprise crew manage to destroy them, but not before they're able to get a subspace message off to some location deep in the Delta Quadrant, but the message won't get there until 200 years later (which conveniently is in the TNG era or just before).
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Just for kicks, I took a look at what non-Federation governments are still alive-and-kicking by Picard... and it looks like the Gorn (of the Gorn Hegemony) are still around. It'd be pretty awesome of Lower Decks or something brought these guys back.

View attachment 149878

Just hit the episode of Lower Decks with the Gorn wedding... this show does not disappoint!
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
In Enterprise, an arctic expedition finds and awakens some Borg drones who got frozen there during First Contact. Hijinx ensue, the Enterprise crew manage to destroy them, but not before they're able to get a subspace message off to some location deep in the Delta Quadrant, but the message won't get there until 200 years later (which conveniently is in the TNG era or just before).

This cannot be true.

Enterprise produced no hijinx, nor even a hootenanny. The level of jinx on that show did not even manage to clear the level of low.

🎶 It's been a long road. Getting from there to here. It's been a long time. But my time is finally near .... 🎶


...you're welcome.
 

payn

Legend
This cannot be true.

Enterprise produced no hijinx, nor even a hootenanny. The level of jinx on that show did not even manage to clear the level of low.

🎶 It's been a long road. Getting from there to here. It's been a long time. But my time is finally near .... 🎶


...you're welcome.
Gotta go all the way with extended version...

 


Blackrat

He Who Lurks Beyond The Veil
I love the paradox in that intro. So IRL the TOS Enterprise was named after the actual ships. The NASA Shuttle was named after TOS Enterprise, after a petition campaign of ”hundreds of thousands” of letters by Trekkies to get the name changed from Constitution to Enterprise.

The intro suggests that NX-01 was named after the Shuttle. And then the TOS Enterprise was obviously named after the NX-01. Thus, in-universe there is a mystery of where did the Shuttle get its name…
 
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Ryujin

Legend
I love the paradox in that intro. So IRL the TOS Enterprise was named after the actual ships. The NASA Shuttle was named after TOS Enterprise, after a petition campaign of ”hundreds of thousands” of letters by Trekkies to get the name changed from Constitution to Enterprise.

The intro suggests that NX-01 was named after the Shuttle. And then the TOS Enterprise was obviously named after the NX-01. Thus, in-universe there is a mystery of where did the Shuttle get its name…
No paradox. Someone dropped a hint while looking for whales and nuklear wessels.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
No paradox. Someone dropped a hint while looking for whales and nuklear wessels.

So, I have a Star Theory .... well, I have a LOT of Star Trek Theories, but this one is germane to the topic, and it tends to apply to science fiction shows on the whole. IMO.

You can have a time-y wime-y show, like Doctor Who or Quantum Leap, which just kind of has time travel as an accepted and normal part of the show.

Or you can have a science fiction show, like Star Trek or any other show that isn't time-y wime-y, in which case time travel should NOT BE an accepted and normal part of the show.

Now, you can have the occasional bit of time travel- you can have the ever-popular temporal loop for a bottle episode, or you can have some version of the "killing Hitler" problem for an episode (in other words, what do you do in order to ensure the past remains the same), or other minor variations. But the one thing you can't do is have time travel itself become a regular and accepted part of the show- it just doesn't work. It creates way too many problems.

And this brings us to why Enterprise failed so comprehensively out of the gate. It wasn't just the casting. It wasn't just the poor writing for the cast. It wasn't just that terrible, yet somehow ear-wormy, themesong. No- it was, quite literally, the entire plot of the first two seasons was the temporal war. It was such a monumentally stupid idea, even now I have trouble recalling anything about it other than it was really, really stupid.

...this was something, by the way, that DISCO has narrowly avoided as well. NEVER GO FULL TIME TRAVEL.
 

Ryujin

Legend
So, I have a Star Theory .... well, I have a LOT of Star Trek Theories, but this one is germane to the topic, and it tends to apply to science fiction shows on the whole. IMO.

You can have a time-y wime-y show, like Doctor Who or Quantum Leap, which just kind of has time travel as an accepted and normal part of the show.

Or you can have a science fiction show, like Star Trek or any other show that isn't time-y wime-y, in which case time travel should NOT BE an accepted and normal part of the show.

Now, you can have the occasional bit of time travel- you can have the ever-popular temporal loop for a bottle episode, or you can have some version of the "killing Hitler" problem for an episode (in other words, what do you do in order to ensure the past remains the same), or other minor variations. But the one thing you can't do is have time travel itself become a regular and accepted part of the show- it just doesn't work. It creates way too many problems.

And this brings us to why Enterprise failed so comprehensively out of the gate. It wasn't just the casting. It wasn't just the poor writing for the cast. It wasn't just that terrible, yet somehow ear-wormy, themesong. No- it was, quite literally, the entire plot of the first two seasons was the temporal war. It was such a monumentally stupid idea, even now I have trouble recalling anything about it other than it was really, really stupid.

...this was something, by the way, that DISCO has narrowly avoided as well. NEVER GO FULL TIME TRAVEL.
I think that setting up "Enterprise" in any way other than as the birth of the Federation was a non starter. That they went with something as monumentally stupid as the Temporal Cold War was just icing on the cake. There was a wealth of pre-existing lore on the subject that they completely ignored, in order to create a complete and utter failure. I liked the cast. They started out, right out of the gate, as better thought out than the original cast of ST:TNG. (That they went for the sexy Vulcan trope, however, I see as a mistake.) I wish that someone would just license the FASA Start Trek RPG content and make something with it.
 

ART!

Legend
Gotta go all the way with extended version...

You really don't. Please? :ROFLMAO:

Each week when we sat down to watch the new ENT ep (yes, I watched them all, in real time, with an entire week between episodes to come to my senses), I would have a different song queued up on the stereo to play during the credit sequence instead of that abominable theme song. I generally kept it ST-related, but of course that very broadly-interpreted prerequisite allowed for things like Nimoy's Bilbo Baggins song...
 

Blackrat

He Who Lurks Beyond The Veil
You really don't. Please? :ROFLMAO:

Each week when we sat down to watch the new ENT ep (yes, I watched them all, in real time, with an entire week between episodes to come to my senses), I would have a different song queued up on the stereo to play during the credit sequence instead of that abominable theme song. I generally kept it ST-related, but of course that very broadly-interpreted prerequisite allowed for things like Nimoy's Bilbo Baggins song...
It sounds to me you lack The Faith of the Heart
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
It sounds to me you lack The Faith of the Heart

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BLACKRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!
 


payn

Legend
You really don't. Please? :ROFLMAO:

Each week when we sat down to watch the new ENT ep (yes, I watched them all, in real time, with an entire week between episodes to come to my senses), I would have a different song queued up on the stereo to play during the credit sequence instead of that abominable theme song. I generally kept it ST-related, but of course that very broadly-interpreted prerequisite allowed for things like Nimoy's Bilbo Baggins song...
During the run I had a girlfriend from Shreveport LA. She loved ENT because of the southern bumpkin engineer. Every week I'd just wait for the cracker barrel ad to come out of that guys mouth. "I brought my grandmammy's cornbread muffin recipe along for the trip!" So, along with her southern engineer she also loved the theme song...
 

ART!

Legend
During the run I had a girlfriend from Shreveport LA. She loved ENT because of the southern bumpkin engineer. Every week I'd just wait for the cracker barrel ad to come out of that guys mouth. "I brought my grandmammy's cornbread muffin recipe along for the trip!" So, along with her southern engineer she also loved the theme song...
I think Tripp was my favorite character, too. He was the only one who talked and behaved vaguely like a normal person. Him and Phlox.
 


Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
During the run I had a girlfriend from Shreveport LA. She loved ENT because of the southern bumpkin engineer. Every week I'd just wait for the cracker barrel ad to come out of that guys mouth. "I brought my grandmammy's cornbread muffin recipe along for the trip!" So, along with her southern engineer she also loved the theme song...

...it didn't last, did it.

Really, that should be the tell-tale sign. It's great for weeding out people on the first date. Just start playing the Enterprise theme music and look at their reaction ... anything but revulsion and disgust? Check please!
 

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