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Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread

I'm definitely a Star Trek fan!
Me too! I didn't watch all of Voyager originally, but eventually I worked my way through it. I'm working on Season Four of Enterprise now, finally. It's not great, but it's watchable. I've seen all the movies. I've watched Next Gen and DS9 multiple times. I own them on DVD. I used to watch TOS as a kid in syndication.

But I've never been to a Star Trek Convention. I don't own any merch (I don't care about merchandising for anything at all, and I'm a comic-book guy, so I admit that I'm unusual that way - it's just all unnecessary junk to me. I absolutely make no judgement against people who like it. Heck, I sell the stuff at work.)

So I suppose some people would consider me not a "true fan", but whatever. Gatekeeping is silly.
 

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cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
I actually thought enterprise was one of the better series, I think I loved it because it was at the birth of star fleet and their tech, while still advanced, was still in development compared to other series so they couldn't just rely on it to solve everything.
 
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Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Oh, another thing. Who the frak has multiple targeting programs for destroying a stationary settlement on a planet, let alone FIVE of them. Her correct line should have been "Destroy the target."
I couldn’t help remembering that when the Romulans were first introduced in TOS, they specifically had a weapon which annihilated planet side installations (and which the enterprise could only resist by running away from it as fast as possible).

In any RPG scenario where the Romulans were being played by PCs, dusting the planet would have taken place 5 seconds after arrival. It wasn’t especially clear why in the huge fleet wouldn’t do just that.
 

FaerieGodfather

Aberrant Druid
Supporter
Re Picard's alluding to current events (Romulans = manipulative Russians or hapless Syrian refugees, Federation = Trump's America) - well they did that in TOS too, often with less subtlety! In itself I don't see that as a bad thing at all, it depends on how well it's handled.
The real key to Star Trek's moral politics is that the Romulans don't stand in for any real-life peoples or political factions, and the Federation doesn't stand for any real-life peoples or factions. We're not the Federation, and our enemies-- or our "enemies"-- are not the Romulans. They stand for the principles and philosophies that have-- in combination-- driven all of the real-world interactions between real-world organizations.

Star Trek doesn't talk about people much. Everything it has to say about real life people, it says by asking us to examine for ourselves the reasons we make the decisions we make-- and how we might make better decisions in the future, if we made it a habit.
 



Hussar

Legend
I couldn’t help remembering that when the Romulans were first introduced in TOS, they specifically had a weapon which annihilated planet side installations (and which the enterprise could only resist by running away from it as fast as possible).

In any RPG scenario where the Romulans were being played by PCs, dusting the planet would have taken place 5 seconds after arrival. It wasn’t especially clear why in the huge fleet wouldn’t do just that.
This is one of the reasons I tend to shy away from SF RPG's. Players are far, FAR more pragmatic than any SF writer could ever be. I mean, seriously, what self respecting PC would go on an away mission in what is, for all intents and purposes, a track suit? No armor? No night vision goggles? So on and so forth. Given ST level technology, an away team could carry a truly frightening level of offensive and defensive capabilities.

Heck, look at the original discussions in this thread about evacuating the Romulan home world. The Romulans fielded 2 HUNDRED star ships. According to Memory Alpha, the older style Romulan Warbirds could carry a crew of 1500 plus officers, crew and troops. So, figure 3-5000/warbird if we're cramming people in there for an evacuation. That means they could ferry a million people with this one fleet. I'm going to assume that this fleet wasn't the entire Romulan fleet, only the Zat Vash (or however it's spelled). Why did the Romulans need any help evacuating their homeworld if they could field this kind of fleet on their own? And, never minding that, why are Romulans living in squalor if they have the capabilities of fielding this size of a fleet? If you have the production capabilities to build a fleet of this size (and remember, this isn't the only Romulan fleet out there), you can certainly rebuild your planets to have paved streets and actual houses.

For Reference: D'deridex class
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
Me too! I didn't watch all of Voyager originally, but eventually I worked my way through it. I'm working on Season Four of Enterprise now, finally. It's not great, but it's watchable. I've seen all the movies. I've watched Next Gen and DS9 multiple times. I own them on DVD. I used to watch TOS as a kid in syndication.

But I've never been to a Star Trek Convention. I don't own any merch (I don't care about merchandising for anything at all, and I'm a comic-book guy, so I admit that I'm unusual that way - it's just all unnecessary junk to me. I absolutely make no judgement against people who like it. Heck, I sell the stuff at work.)

So I suppose some people would consider me not a "true fan", but whatever. Gatekeeping is silly.
Hah! I'm doing the same thing, doing a rewatch of Next Gen inspired by ST: Picard! And I just finished Season 4! There are some really good episodes in each season (even Season 1), but I find even the mediocre episodes comforting, like a warm bowl of mac-n-cheese! :)
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
This is one of the reasons I tend to shy away from SF RPG's. Players are far, FAR more pragmatic than any SF writer could ever be. I mean, seriously, what self respecting PC would go on an away mission in what is, for all intents and purposes, a track suit? No armor? No night vision goggles? So on and so forth. Given ST level technology, an away team could carry a truly frightening level of offensive and defensive capabilities.

Heck, look at the original discussions in this thread about evacuating the Romulan home world. The Romulans fielded 2 HUNDRED star ships. According to Memory Alpha, the older style Romulan Warbirds could carry a crew of 1500 plus officers, crew and troops. So, figure 3-5000/warbird if we're cramming people in there for an evacuation. That means they could ferry a million people with this one fleet. I'm going to assume that this fleet wasn't the entire Romulan fleet, only the Zat Vash (or however it's spelled). Why did the Romulans need any help evacuating their homeworld if they could field this kind of fleet on their own? And, never minding that, why are Romulans living in squalor if they have the capabilities of fielding this size of a fleet? If you have the production capabilities to build a fleet of this size (and remember, this isn't the only Romulan fleet out there), you can certainly rebuild your planets to have paved streets and actual houses.

For Reference: D'deridex class
Instead of running an "official" Star Trek RPG campaign (or any other franchise) . . . . I prefer the alternate universe approach where not only can I change events and characters as I see fit, but "fix" the silly things in the franchise. In my future alternate Star Trek campaign, the PCs will be an away team without any bridge officers, and they will be appropriately geared for the hazards they might face! I know that might not make superfans happy, but it's the only sane approach, IMO! :)
 

Kaodi

Adventurer
When Picard was told off by his Starfleet contact in that one episode I was definitely thinking, "That was for Wesley."
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
Instead of running an "official" Star Trek RPG campaign (or any other franchise) . . . . I prefer the alternate universe approach where not only can I change events and characters as I see fit, but "fix" the silly things in the franchise. In my future alternate Star Trek campaign, the PCs will be an away team without any bridge officers, and they will be appropriately geared for the hazards they might face! I know that might not make superfans happy, but it's the only sane approach, IMO! :)
Yeah, two of the things that always seemed a little off to me is that it was always the officers beaming down which makes sense from a show standpoint, they are the stars of the show so they get more screen time, but surely they'd have teams of lower ranks assembled to investigate planets. I'd also think that beaming down to an unknown planet wearing standard starfleet uniforms instead of some sort of hazmat suit would be a bad idea.
 


Hah! I'm doing the same thing, doing a rewatch of Next Gen inspired by ST: Picard! And I just finished Season 4! There are some really good episodes in each season (even Season 1), but I find even the mediocre episodes comforting, like a warm bowl of mac-n-cheese! :)
My wife and I did a Picard-related "Highlights" TNG rewatch - we watched all the episodes that had anything to do with Data, Lore, Soong, the Borg, Hugh, Romulans, etc. (Plus a few extras because we felt like it!) It really is like a hug from an old friend.

If you have the production capabilities to build a fleet of this size (and remember, this isn't the only Romulan fleet out there), you can certainly rebuild your planets to have paved streets and actual houses.
Yet another reason why that stand-off scene in Picard would have actually worked better with like 3-7 ships per side. Picard's multi-La Sirena hologram trick would have worked better too if the smaller craft had actually vastly OUTNUMBERED the Romulans in the ruse. The scene as they made it was exciting, I suppose, but it doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. It just seems like they got greedy with "MOAR SHIPS! RAWR!"

Yeah, two of the things that always seemed a little off to me is that it was always the officers beaming down which makes sense from a show standpoint, they are the stars of the show so they get more screen time, but surely they'd have teams of lower ranks assembled to investigate planets. I'd also think that beaming down to an unknown planet wearing standard starfleet uniforms instead of some sort of hazmat suit would be a bad idea.
It's a silly thing that probably comes from the budget constraints of TOS, and then after that was just "tradition". It makes very little sense You'd think they'd have specialists, even. Star Trek uses something like a meritocracy for advancement, and it's just plain how things work that a mission-specialist would be better for an away mission than a member of a bridge staff. But I think it's a place were we just have to suspend our disbelief for the sake of the established premise.
 

MarkB

Legend
Yeah, I gotta say, ST has always been pretty strongly allegorical. And, very much a product of its time. 90's Fernengi, 80's Glasnost and the Klingons, so on and so forth. Then again, all good SF is allegorical.
Yeah, and sometimes the allegory gets really unsubtle. One of the reasons I dislike Star Trek VI, despite it being a well-regarded movie, is that the script feels like it's roughly 60% out-of-context Cold War political quotes, 30% out-of-context Shakespeare quotes, and only about 10% actual Star Trek.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
This is one of the reasons I tend to shy away from SF RPG's. Players are far, FAR more pragmatic than any SF writer could ever be. I mean, seriously, what self respecting PC would go on an away mission in what is, for all intents and purposes, a track suit? No armor? No night vision goggles? So on and so forth. Given ST level technology, an away team could carry a truly frightening level of offensive and defensive capabilities.
True. The standard gear of Star Trek officers is sometimes fantastic, but kinda uneven. Tricorders that can scan everything at any range the plot desires, phasers that can stun, kill, disintegrate and turn stones into heaters... But no personal force shields or anything. But the Jem'Hadar have genetically inbuilt cloak and seem to be bad at exploiting this most of the time!

Heck, look at the original discussions in this thread about evacuating the Romulan home world. The Romulans fielded 2 HUNDRED star ships. According to Memory Alpha, the older style Romulan Warbirds could carry a crew of 1500 plus officers, crew and troops. So, figure 3-5000/warbird if we're cramming people in there for an evacuation. That means they could ferry a million people with this one fleet. I'm going to assume that this fleet wasn't the entire Romulan fleet, only the Zat Vash (or however it's spelled). Why did the Romulans need any help evacuating their homeworld if they could field this kind of fleet on their own? And, never minding that, why are Romulans living in squalor if they have the capabilities of fielding this size of a fleet? If you have the production capabilities to build a fleet of this size (and remember, this isn't the only Romulan fleet out there), you can certainly rebuild your planets to have paved streets and actual houses.

For Reference: D'deridex class
I wouldn't be certain that this wasn't basically the Romulan Fleet. Or at least a significant portion of it. The Zhat Vash are supposed to be a secret organization, even within the Tal'Shiar they were more a rumour than a known fact, according to the two Tal'Shiar representatives at Picard's vineyard. My guess is that the Zhat Vash, as part of the Tal'Shiar, simply tells the Romulan Empire / Free State / Republic that there is a huge threat for them, and they send what they have available. They might know that it's because of Synths building some kind of doomsday device or beacon to call a doomsday device, but they might not know the Zhat Vash has been fighting such threats for the entire time. They aren't "property" of the Zhat Vash or anything - it's just that the job of an intelligence service is to inform the government of threats, and when they name an urgent one, the military will be send out to meet it.

But of course, this is also 14 years after the Romulan Supernova. So the ship we see now might not represent what they had back then. 2375, the Dominion War ends, the most costly war in the recent history of the Alpha (and Beta) Quadrant. 2379, we have the events of Nemesis that throws the Romulan Empire in disarray as its political leadership is murdered by Shinzon, who also dies. The Supernova is 2387, 12 years after the Dominion War and 9 years after a chaotic political situation. It's quite possible that the Star Empire wasn't really in a good shape for quite a while.

The other thing to consider about the Romulans is - they have the presumably best cloaking tech in the quadrant. Yet, they constantly tip-toe around the Klingons and the Federation and constantly try to manipulate events. Even when the Klingons are still hostile to the Federation, they carefully probe their options. In at least two alternate timelines (Yesterday's Enterprise and the All Good Things Future), the Romulans get eventually steamrolled by the Klingons (in case of Yesterday's Enterprise even though they started the war by attacking the Klingon colony, so they clearly overestimated their own abilities...).
Chances are, their forces cannot compete with either of the two. They do not have a numerical advantage, they could launch strikes that hit hard, but they can't hold any territory against their enemy numbers. They are strong enough that anyone attacking them must be willing to sacrifice a lot, but not strong enough to win against a determined foe.

Anyway, one of the logistical challenges of ane evacuation is that you don't just need ships. You need a place for people to live. That means shelter, food, water, sewage, education, medical supplies. And I suspect that a Warbird is not equipped to deliver or produce that in significant amounts.
Cloaks are great for subterfuge and stealth attacks, but not so great if you need raw numbers.
 

atanakar

Hero
Enjoyed Picard immensely despite a few minor misgivings.

Hoping the next season of Discovery will be of the same level. No more time travel / alternate reality stories please.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
True. The standard gear of Star Trek officers is sometimes fantastic, but kinda uneven. Tricorders that can scan everything at any range the plot desires, phasers that can stun, kill, disintegrate and turn stones into heaters... But no personal force shields or anything. But the Jem'Hadar have genetically inbuilt cloak and seem to be bad at exploiting this most of the time!


I wouldn't be certain that this wasn't basically the Romulan Fleet. Or at least a significant portion of it. The Zhat Vash are supposed to be a secret organization, even within the Tal'Shiar they were more a rumour than a known fact, according to the two Tal'Shiar representatives at Picard's vineyard. My guess is that the Zhat Vash, as part of the Tal'Shiar, simply tells the Romulan Empire / Free State / Republic that there is a huge threat for them, and they send what they have available. They might know that it's because of Synths building some kind of doomsday device or beacon to call a doomsday device, but they might not know the Zhat Vash has been fighting such threats for the entire time. They aren't "property" of the Zhat Vash or anything - it's just that the job of an intelligence service is to inform the government of threats, and when they name an urgent one, the military will be send out to meet it.

But of course, this is also 14 years after the Romulan Supernova. So the ship we see now might not represent what they had back then. 2375, the Dominion War ends, the most costly war in the recent history of the Alpha (and Beta) Quadrant. 2379, we have the events of Nemesis that throws the Romulan Empire in disarray as its political leadership is murdered by Shinzon, who also dies. The Supernova is 2387, 12 years after the Dominion War and 9 years after a chaotic political situation. It's quite possible that the Star Empire wasn't really in a good shape for quite a while.

The other thing to consider about the Romulans is - they have the presumably best cloaking tech in the quadrant. Yet, they constantly tip-toe around the Klingons and the Federation and constantly try to manipulate events. Even when the Klingons are still hostile to the Federation, they carefully probe their options. In at least two alternate timelines (Yesterday's Enterprise and the All Good Things Future), the Romulans get eventually steamrolled by the Klingons (in case of Yesterday's Enterprise even though they started the war by attacking the Klingon colony, so they clearly overestimated their own abilities...).
Chances are, their forces cannot compete with either of the two. They do not have a numerical advantage, they could launch strikes that hit hard, but they can't hold any territory against their enemy numbers. They are strong enough that anyone attacking them must be willing to sacrifice a lot, but not strong enough to win against a determined foe.

Anyway, one of the logistical challenges of ane evacuation is that you don't just need ships. You need a place for people to live. That means shelter, food, water, sewage, education, medical supplies. And I suspect that a Warbird is not equipped to deliver or produce that in significant amounts.
Cloaks are great for subterfuge and stealth attacks, but not so great if you need raw numbers.
You got it right there. Commodore Oh (the Romulan/Vulcan sleeper agent in Starfleet) was in charge of the fleet, and she is Zhat Vash. But the fleet wasn't. The Tal Shiar get to boss everybody around whenever they want!

You also make a good point that it's been 14 years since the supernova, and the Romulan Free State has had time to rebuild. Also, putting resources into a ginormous fleet of warbirds versus taking care of refugees eeking out an existence planetside . . . it isn't unrealistic per se, but rather it shows the Romulan governments priorities.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
Enjoyed Picard immensely despite a few minor misgivings.

Hoping the next season of Discovery will be of the same level. No more time travel / alternate reality stories please.
Hah! What's a season of Star Trek without some time travel or alternate realities?!?! Other than ST: Picard, has there ever been a Star Trek show that's avoided these kind of plots? :)
 

You also make a good point that it's been 14 years since the supernova, and the Romulan Free State has had time to rebuild. Also, putting resources into a ginormous fleet of warbirds versus taking care of refugees eeking out an existence planetside . . . it isn't unrealistic per se, but rather it shows the Romulan governments priorities.
Sounds pretty consistent with how Romulans have always been portrayed, actually.

As an aside, I find it a little strange that she gave up her cover as a Starfleet Commodore. Did I miss the bit where they proved her a double-agent?
 

MarkB

Legend
Sounds pretty consistent with how Romulans have always been portrayed, actually.

As an aside, I find it a little strange that she gave up her cover as a Starfleet Commodore. Did I miss the bit where they proved her a double-agent?
That was out of the bag pretty much as soon as Agnes got over her murdery phase. Also, it seems like she was already on Raffle's conspiracy radar.
 

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