Star Trek vs. Babylon 5

[Darrin Drader]

Dear lord, this thread has dragged Star Wars into it too. I declare that the shark has been jumped. I'm moving along to greener pastures.

 

[paulewaug]

Jumped the shark?!
Dude! Let's jump the whale!!

For your considreation I introduce....

Farscape
and
Battlestar Galactica (new and/or old )

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Personally I think Earthforce alone can beat Starfleet.

First off, the speed issue. As has been pointed out, they can't fight at Warp speed. And even if they could, what're they gonna do? Go to warp and pop off one shot in the fraction of a second the warp engine will take them out of range? Besides, jump tech is superior to warp drive. As far as I can tell, people can get farther with jump engines then they can with warp drive. There's also the advantage of being able to exit normal space. Let's say you're the Enterprise on some mission to study some spacial anomaly or another. While your guard is down, a jump point opens and out comes an Earthforce Omega-Class Destroyer. Before you have a chance to raise shields and arm phasers and photon torpedos, the Earthforce ship has blown you away.

Well, surprise attack always are in benefit of the attacker, but some notes:
The Destroyer would have to come out of Hyperspace very near to the Enterprise and know where to shoot them. I am not sure if the Earthforce targeting is that fast, but it is certainly a possibility. But the hyperspace "gate" has first to open and let the ship through - I think it would be little problem for Starfleet sensors to detect this build up. (Though if this is the first EA/Starfleet contact, possibly nobody knows how to react to it.)

Second, Earthforce Destroyers carry fighters. So a starfleet ship won't just have to face a destroyer, but a small fleet of fightercraft. And fact is, Starfleet ships don't fire fast enough to take down so many aircraft. The Defiant is pretty much the only ship with a quick enough rate of fire, but it suffers from only being able to shoot what's in front of it.

Small fighters only have small firepower. I think there is a reason why nobody in the Startrek Universe relies on small fighters. Except for the Defiant, bigger usually means better. Starfleet Ships actually can fire really fast, but against shields, long, continous beams usually prove better than short bursts (at least according to the Technical Manual). An important, additional factor: Starfleet weapons are extremely precise and seem never to miss (at least Phasers).

Third, while Earthforce ships don't have shields, they don't really need them. As has been pointed out, they don't really have to worry about the Transport-A-Weapon thing, since the Starfleet ship would have to bring down shields, at which point the combined firepower of the Earthforce ship and fighters would bring it down. Second, they're so big that they can shrug off several impacts from even photon torpedos and phaser blasts. B5 ships didn't instantly explode upon the first hit, after all. They were tough ships, even without shields. Those Omegas were able to stand up to a lot of damage dished out by ships more powerful than Starfleet ships. Also, unlike Starfleet ships, they have the capability to intercept incoming fire. So while they'll probably eat each and every phaser blast, they have a good shot at bringing down a large percentage of any photon torpedoes fired their way.

I am not sure, but I believe in the later series the issue with beaming through their own shields seems to be no problem (but that might only be some inconsistencies).
Torpedos can be intercepted, that is true, but it is seldomly used in the show. (I can only remember one incident, and it weren`t even real torpeods then, I believe). According to the Tech manual, the tactical systems of the ship might in fact be able to counter these counter-measures, though I never saw a torpedo making evasive maneuvers.
An interesting question: Are B5 ships tough, or are the B5 weapons weak? I always assumed the latter, especially because of the fact that Startrek ships have shields, and use antimatter weapons.
Anyway, the Starfleet ships are tougher than you might think - in the first combats against the Dominon, the Jem`Hardar cruisers were able to penetrate Federation shields. This proved disastrous, but even then, the ship was able to stand up for a while. It was not destroyed by ordinary fire, but when one of the Jem`Hardar ship made a kamikaze attack. (But the Starfleet ship - galaxy class, by the way - was already retreating at that moment, and had taken severe damage. The attack was only to make a point...)

As for a war between the Federation and the Earth Alliance, again, I say the Earth Alliance wins. The Federation is only about 150 planets, not "hundreds" of worlds. Also, the Federation fleet isn't that big, whereas Earthforce has a massive fleet in Omega Class Destroyers, alone. Nevermind ground troops! For cripes sake, Federation ground soldiers go into battle wearing the standard Starfleet uniforms! You've got to be kidding me! The guys that're slogging through the deserts and the jungles are wearing the same uniform that Picard and Sisko wear on the bridge? Hasn't the Federation ever heard of BDU's? Nevermind that Earthforce has heard of a little thing called BODY ARMOR.

Earthforce wins this one, hands down. I'm not even gonna MENTION what the Minbari would do to them!

I agree, the ground combat of Startrek and Starfleet is really lacking. (they should have invested a bit more in some props for this.) Well, at least Phasers are extremely powerful weapons, so maybe the body armor wouldn`t help. (but Klingon warriors would have trouble against it, I guess.)
But I believe you overestimate the size of the Earth Alliance - Earth Alliance is not equal to the Interestellar Alliance.
And you underestimate the Startrek fleet. During the Dominion wars, it proved much bigger then I ever expected (with several "fleets" of dozens of ships engaged during the war). At Wolf 359, over 40 ships fought against the Borg. They were all destroyed, but none of the powerful enemies of the Federation seemed to the this as an oppertunity to attack it, which might show that, while a severe loss, it did not cripple the fleet (which was assembled in a rush, by the way - the borg threat was a surprise attack, not a full fledged war like the Dominon War)

Jumped the shark?!
Dude! Let's jump the whale!!

For your considreation I introduce....

Farscape
and
Battlestar Galactica (new and/or old )

I would add Space: Above and Beyond into this mix.: )

I would compare Battlestar Galactica and Sace with Starwars and Babylon 5 Tech, and Farspace seems to go more into the Startrek Technology type, though there are some aspects more resembling B5 or SW.
(with Technology in this case I don`t neccessarily talk about superiority and similar aspects, it`s more the "feel" these shows give)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[s/LaSH]

Well, surprise attack always are in benefit of the attacker, but some notes:
The Destroyer would have to come out of Hyperspace very near to the Enterprise and know where to shoot them...

Read the following lines out loud, simultaneously.

"Sir! I'm picking up a subspace distortion!" "Onscreen." "Analysis, Number One?"
VWEEEERRRRR WHOOOMMM "Target within range, Captain." "Fire." VWRRRRBOOOM

This is the narrative method of prediction.

Small fighters only have small firepower. I think there is a reason why nobody in the Startrek Universe relies on small fighters. Except for the Defiant, bigger usually means better. Starfleet Ships actually can fire really fast, but against shields, long, continous beams usually prove better than short bursts (at least according to the Technical Manual). An important, additional factor: Starfleet weapons are extremely precise and seem never to miss (at least Phasers).

Fighters are fragile, but maneuverable. Especially EA Starfuries, which take the X-wing design and make it sing. Is that enough to counter Trek targeting? It is if you've damaged targeting systems and forced Worf to go to manual targeting. Also, if you can use Starfury fighters, you can probably use Starfury bombers (as seen in the 'suppression' of the Martian riots).

I am not sure, but I believe in the later series the issue with beaming through their own shields seems to be no problem (but that might only be some inconsistencies).

Voyager certainly had no way to beam through shields, although the Borg did and the Janeway time travel incident might have introduced further technology. And the Enterprise NX-01 has no shields, just an advanced form of that British high-energy armour technology. I don't really know, however.

Torpedos can be intercepted, that is true, but it is seldomly used in the show. (I can only remember one incident, and it weren`t even real torpeods then, I believe). According to the Tech manual, the tactical systems of the ship might in fact be able to counter these counter-measures, though I never saw a torpedo making evasive maneuvers.

EA ships don't mess around when it comes to point defence. Interceptors, Mk I and Mk II. They can shoot down fighters, intercept particle weapons, and create a localised effect similar to shields. It's not exactly a countermeasure if it's shooting at you from six directions at once. Torps aren't as big as fighters (there was one episode of DS9 when a dud torp hit the Defiant and Quark tried to salvage it for sale; it was huge, but not as massive as a Starfury), so that might help... but maybe not.

An interesting question: Are B5 ships tough, or are the B5 weapons weak? I always assumed the latter, especially because of the fact that Startrek ships have shields, and use antimatter weapons.

Antimatter torps. Yes. By comparison, the Vree of B5 are developing a third generation antimatter 'beam' weapon, to replace their antiproton and superior antimatter cannons. It's not much deadlier than any of the other weapons of the B5 universe, although the new generation is supposed to support a withering rate of fire.

Anyway, the Starfleet ships are tougher than you might think - in the first combats against the Dominon, the Jem`Hardar cruisers were able to penetrate Federation shields. This proved disastrous, but even then, the ship was able to stand up for a while. It was not destroyed by ordinary fire, but when one of the Jem`Hardar ship made a kamikaze attack. (But the Starfleet ship - galaxy class, by the way - was already retreating at that moment, and had taken severe damage. The attack was only to make a point...)

True. It's always 'Hull breaches on decks 1 thru 12, power out to hydroponics, sensors offline', never 'We're doomed'. Heck, look at the Defiant. She got hammered really badly at the Borg battle in Earth orbit, and hung together to be destroyed later in a pivotal battle on DS9.

Then again, I've seen EA destroyers take a nuke up the nose point-blank and stay intact. So I wouldn't say Trek ships are tougher. They are, however, contenders.

I agree, the ground combat of Startrek and Starfleet is really lacking. (they should have invested a bit more in some props for this.) Well, at least Phasers are extremely powerful weapons, so maybe the body armor wouldn`t help. (but Klingon warriors would have trouble against it, I guess.)

Klingons aren't entirely stupid; they'd be quite happy blasting away with disruptors. "There is no honour in defeat," as was spoken during the Dominion War.

However, I'd give the edge here to the automatic PPG rifles that EA gropos carry. They can saw through a bulkhead like nobody's business.

But I believe you overestimate the size of the Earth Alliance - Earth Alliance is not equal to the Interestellar Alliance.
And you underestimate the Startrek fleet. During the Dominion wars, it proved much bigger then I ever expected (with several "fleets" of dozens of ships engaged during the war). At Wolf 359, over 40 ships fought against the Borg. They were all destroyed, but none of the powerful enemies of the Federation seemed to the this as an oppertunity to attack it, which might show that, while a severe loss, it did not cripple the fleet (which was assembled in a rush, by the way - the borg threat was a surprise attack, not a full fledged war like the Dominon War)

This is entirely true. EA couldn't field more than a couple dozen capital ships, in my estimation, whereas Starfleet is hugeous.

Throw the might of the Interstellar Alliance behind EA, however, and you're talking a whole different kettle of fish... and if you want, we can do Shadows versus Borg.

"No! You can't assimillate that planet!"
"Why not?"
"Because it's not there any more."

 

[Green Knight]

This is entirely true. EA couldn't field more than a couple dozen capital ships, in my estimation, whereas Starfleet is hugeous.

Huh? Did you miss the Earth Civil War? How about the Drakh attack on Earth? During the Earth Civil War, in Mars orbit alone, there was a fleet of 30 Omega Class Destroyers that Sheridan and co. had to find a way to disable. Those ships alone account for your couple dozen figure. Then there's all those numerous battles that they engaged in with the White Stars, the ships that defected to Sheridan, the ships on patrol, the ships protecting Earth, etc.

Here's an interesting link regarding the size of the Earth Alliance fleet.

http://www.b5tech.com/science/misc/fleetsize/earthfleetsize.html

As noted there, the novelization of "In The Beginning" states that at that time Earth Force had a fleet of 50,000 star ships. And that was at the time of the Earth/Minbari war. The fleet has undoubtedly grown since then, and of course, the Omega was introduced soon after that war. Here's an interesting paragraph from that page.

All in all, at present, Earth likely has a fleet consisting of some 20,000 capital scale vessels. Of these, roughly 900 to 1,400 likely fall into the Omega classification. Those who doubt this figure, please note that in the TNT movie "A Call to Arms" some 212 Omega class Destroyers were blown out of the night and, while a seizable number, this loss was not significant enough to cripple the whole of the Earth fleet; we know from Gideon's arrival that many ships were still in rout to Earth during the battle.

I had forgotten the number mentioned in the Crusade pilot, but I knew that the number of Omega Class Destroyers blown away in the Drakh attack was in the hundreds. And as was pointed out there, that loss didn't phase Earth Alliance. So no, Earth Force isn't exactly a pushover as far as when it comes to capital scale ships.

 

[Green Knight]

Small fighters only have small firepower. I think there is a reason why nobody in the Startrek Universe relies on small fighters. Except for the Defiant, bigger usually means better. Starfleet Ships actually can fire really fast, but against shields, long, continous beams usually prove better than short bursts (at least according to the Technical Manual). An important, additional factor: Starfleet weapons are extremely precise and seem never to miss (at least Phasers).

Even the big honking ships they miss from time to time, so starfleet weapons aren't THAT precise. Nevermind the tiny and agile Starfuries. And that small firepower adds up to a lot of damage pretty quickly. I remember an ep of B5 when the fighters had the run of the field without fighter opposition and roasted a battle cruiser. But anyway, as fast as Starfleet ships can fire, they can't fire fast enough nor accurately enough to hit so many small, fast-moving targets. And if they're wasting their shots on trying to take down fighters, then that's less shots being targeted at the capital ship. See the point? Also, however much firepower, say, a Sovereign Class can put out, that doesn't compare to what a Warlock can put out. Check it out.

12 Large missile silos
16 Small missile silos
2 Heavy Particle Beam cannons
9 Heavy Pulse Cannon turrets
3 Heavy railgun turrets
4 Medium Pulse Cannon turrets
9 Light Pulse Cannon Turrets
16 short range PP turrets
??? number of various small calibre energy and projective AA placements *

That's not even mentioning the 42 Starfuries that it carries. Nevermind the 80,000 troops aboard. Something tells me those Warlocks carry plenty of boarding pods. Once a couple of those babies latch onto the Enterprise, it's all over.

I am not sure, but I believe in the later series the issue with beaming through their own shields seems to be no problem (but that might only be some inconsistencies).

Nope. Still can't beam through shields. Not even Voyager cheesed past that element of Trek canon.

Torpedos can be intercepted, that is true, but it is seldomly used in the show. (I can only remember one incident, and it weren`t even real torpeods then, I believe).

Which show are you talking about? Star Trek or B5? Because in B5, interception of incoming fire happens all the time. It doesn't happen in Star Trek because everything's focused on shields. Nobody in Star Trek has the point defense systems that Earth Alliance has. Hell, most races in B5 aren't quite as good in that area as Earth Alliance is. Earth Force tech in that field is superior even to Minbari tech in that field. It was Earth Alliance who provided that bit of technology to the contruction of the Interstellar Alliance's Victory Class Destroyers (You know, the Excalibur).

According to the Tech manual, the tactical systems of the ship might in fact be able to counter these counter-measures, though I never saw a torpedo making evasive maneuvers.

Lot's of missiles in B5, so I doubt they'd be unprepared for any maneuvers a photon torpedo might employ.

An interesting question: Are B5 ships tough, or are the B5 weapons weak? I always assumed the latter, especially because of the fact that Startrek ships have shields, and use antimatter weapons.

I doubt B5 weapons are weak. They've gone toe-to-toe with races that clearly dwarf the Federation (Shadows, Vorlons, etc) and have done pretty well for themselves. So unless someone wants to make the claim that Starfleet can beat the Shadows and/or the Vorlons, then I don't think they're weak.

Anyway, the Starfleet ships are tougher than you might think - in the first combats against the Dominon, the Jem`Hardar cruisers were able to penetrate Federation shields. This proved disastrous, but even then, the ship was able to stand up for a while. It was not destroyed by ordinary fire, but when one of the Jem`Hardar ship made a kamikaze attack. (But the Starfleet ship - galaxy class, by the way - was already retreating at that moment, and had taken severe damage. The attack was only to make a point...)

I remember that episode. The Odyssey was an utter wreck inside of 2 minutes. I have NEVER seen a Galaxy class ship THAT badly damaged so quickly, before. Yeah, it wasn't destroyed, but the ship was practically gutted before the Jem'Hadar kamikazi'd it. Something which they probably only did because it was about to escape through the wormhole. Had they had their way for another minute or so, the Odyssey would've been creamed either way. Even with the worst poundings, Earth Force ships tent to last a little bit longer than that.

I agree, the ground combat of Startrek and Starfleet is really lacking. (they should have invested a bit more in some props for this.) Well, at least Phasers are extremely powerful weapons, so maybe the body armor wouldn`t help. (but Klingon warriors would have trouble against it, I guess.)

Well, the thing with the Phasers is that if you go for the higher powered shots, you get less shots total. For instance, in a Star Trek book I read a while back, Vendetta, you only get like a dozen shots at setting 16. And even then, we're talking phasers. As powerful as the blasts are, we're not talking machine-gun fire, here. Nevermind that ordinary cover doesn't seem to have a problem in stopping your average phaser blast. In which case the Earth Force body armor has a chance of protecting a guy. OTOH, Earth Force has a lot of neat guns with high rates of fire they lug around. And while it's debateable whether those weapons are more powerful or less powerful than phasers, it doesn't really matter since Fed ground troops wear NO protection at all. So they're still just as dead. But with their guns that have a higher rate of fire, the GROPOS will be able to kill a lot more Fed troops than the Fed would be able to kill with their "One Squeeze, One Long Shot" phasers. Especially if the Earth Force body armor can protect them from some of the damage inflicted by phasers.

But I believe you overestimate the size of the Earth Alliance - Earth Alliance is not equal to the Interestellar Alliance.

I never said Earth Force was the size of the Interstellar Alliance. But you're making the assumption that Interstellar Alliance is the same size as the Federation. It's not. Let me illustrate:

In Star Trek, only about a quarter of the galaxy is explored. Out of that quarter, the Federation makes up one of MANY interstellar nations. It's one of the biggest, certainly, but there're NUMEROUS other nations as big if not bigger than the Federation.

In B5, about 25% of the galaxy is explored. Nearly ALL of that is part of the Interstellar Alliance (Although to be fair, the IA isn't really a government like the Federation).

Earth Alliance is probably, territory-wise, about a third the size of the Federation. But that doesn't mean that their fleet isn't enormous.

And you underestimate the Startrek fleet. During the Dominion wars, it proved much bigger then I ever expected (with several "fleets" of dozens of ships engaged during the war). At Wolf 359, over 40 ships fought against the Borg. They were all destroyed, but none of the powerful enemies of the Federation seemed to the this as an oppertunity to attack it, which might show that, while a severe loss, it did not cripple the fleet (which was assembled in a rush, by the way - the borg threat was a surprise attack, not a full fledged war like the Dominon War)

Well, considering that every other major power in the Alpha Quadrant got flattened right along with the Federation by the Dominion (Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Breen, etc), I don't see how anybody can take advantage. But they probably were pretty badly hurt, considering that the Federation nearly lost that war. If they could've thrown more ships into the fight, something tells me they would have.

Damn, now I've got a huge urge to go out and buy all the B5 DVD sets and play the new B5 RPG!

 

[clark411]

Well, the first point of contention I have between comparing SF and EA fleet size is that the huge numbers spouted by Deep Space 9 were mostly Peregrin Class fighters and small "destroyer / escort" ships (smaller than the Akira Class) not far off of Keldon Class Cardassian ships. The point of post DS9 combat was to lay down as many photon and quantum torpedoes as possible from far range and then cut to close range for fly by cinematic shots that we dorks can frame-by-frame on DVD (personally have yet to do it but.. one day..) heh.

The EA forces on the other hand are primarily cap ships and carriers. SF wouldn't know an actual capital ship if it bit them in the rear... actually they would, the Dominion had them, and did bite them in the rear quite handily. We never saw the bigger vessels, like the Galaxy, go down rapidly in the war simply because the Galaxy wasn't huge news post ST:Generations. The prelude to war, if we look back, did actually have a Galaxy blow up within moments of an engagement as a Dominion "bug" ship rammed it just upwards of the deflection dish. The secondary hull, mind you, is supposedly the "battle section" of the Galaxy.

A large part of the DS9+ series' tropes suggest that Starfleet was composed primarily of overly-expensive, weak, oversized vessels that were unable to cope with the realities of the, well, late 1990's-early 0's viewer who enjoyed watching the idealism replaced with conquest, danger, and CGI space battles. If we're going to cling to the ideas that SF is about last minute solutions, teflon protagonists, and invincible ships (You can't blow up the Enterprise! The show is called Enterprise!) lets also acknowledge the idea that SF, on the whole, is crap and struggling to redefine itself well into the Batmovoyager series that most cringed at.

An EF cap ship hull on the other hand, would most likely take a punch like that and smile. Even if it did happen to explode, no worries- there are dozens upon dozens more. There were only 6 or so Galaxy sister ships originally commissioned and they took years to develop and produce, and they were avoided due to their disgusting cost after that. Every capital-equivalent ship that Starfleet produces seems to be a huge investment, while B5 tends to suggest an infrastructure that can handle a dozen or so major ships lost in engagements without immediate concern.

On the whole, the bulk of SF ships are either fragile, or small. They depend upon range to lay fire down range, and use phasers primarily to disable weapons etc or, if the shields are down, "aim at the warp core" to prove just how fragile ST technology tends to be with it's We Move Fast and Blow Up Faster engines. B5 ships however, are lightning strike ships that lack weaknesses like 5 meter thick nacelles, blatently placed bridges, easy boom engines, and phasers that tend to scorch more than slice.

My other point of "Hey I disagree"ness comes from the statement that Starfleet ships would be targeting B5 ships as they came out of jump, while B5 ships would be slower to engage. That kind of sentiment is disproved repeatedly through the B5 series. More often than not, ships come out of jump with their guns blazing. The only time I can recall a hostile ship not opening fire immediately was when a Narn cap ship on autopilot and full of explosives attempted to ram B5.

... has anyone else finished a post and suddenly felt this deep "Oh no, you're arguing about Star Trek and Babylon 5 on the internet!" sensation?

 

[s/LaSH]

... has anyone else finished a post and suddenly felt this deep "Oh no, you're arguing about Star Trek and Babylon 5 on the internet!" sensation?

I'm so proud... *sniff* It's an experience my geekhood has not yet included.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

... has anyone else finished a post and suddenly felt this deep "Oh no, you're arguing about Star Trek and Babylon 5 on the internet!" sensation?

I'm so proud... *sniff* It's an experience my geekhood has not yet included.

I had the same sensations.

For the rest - I guess some of us have to agree to disagree in their opinions which fleet will succeed.
I guess, eventually the winning fleet is whatever the author prefers.

Maybe I will come up with some other arguments why the Starfleet is superior to the EA fleet (I think I found somewhere some links about Babylon 5 starships and weapons, maybe I can use some of it for some pseudotechnical and pseudoscientific analyzes), but for now, I wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[s/LaSH]

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

We can have Q dressed up as Santa, a big party on B5 where Londo mistakenly believes he's at a funeral until G'kar tires of the joke, and massive CG celebrations in the streets of Coruscant where nobody knows what they're celebrating because it hasn't happened yet.

Merry Christmas.