Star Wars Saga, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Felon]

In pulp, such as Star Wars, even the non-combative PCs should be capable in combat when push comes to shove. The further you get away from how Star Wars is presented, you will find it harder to use Saga to cover all the options.

We're not talking about getting away from how Star Wars is presented. There are Star Wars characters that are lousy at pushing and shoving, and even more to the point, what we were talkiing about the lack of content designed for anything other than pushing and shoving.

For instance, I'd rather have seen the fringer talents become general feats.

 

[Victim]

Well, in the movies, most of the non-jedi characters aren't especilally awesome at combat. Han's not a crack shot or anything, and Chewebacca doesn more as a co-pilot and mechanic than he does as a some melee brute.

Consider the Saga preview where the skirmish at Sarlacc's pit is recreated using the new rules. Luke kicks butt left and right, never failing at anything. Han, Chewbacca, and Lando, OTOH, are basically the three stooges.

I'd say the movies give us plenty of noncombatant characters to play.

Han is blind during that fight. Chewie takes no useful actions, really, so it doesn't matter what his stats actually are. Luke's also the only one who brought his favorite weapon.

It's not like we see the other characters performing at anything near their full potential. The entire fight is pretty much structured to let Luke show off.

 

[Felon]

Han is blind during that fight. Chewie takes no useful actions, really, so it doesn't matter what his stats actually are. Luke's also the only one who brought his favorite weapon.

It's not like we see the other characters performing at anything near their full potential. The entire fight is pretty much structured to let Luke show off.

Your remark about Chewie puzzles me. So, if someone is inactive during a fight, that doesn't show them being a noncombatant? Lando's clumsyness isn't damning?

When do we see these guys at their full potential as awesome warriors? For Han, it's pretty much limited to dogfighting in the Milllenium Falcon, not kicking butt as a gunslinger.

 

[Henry]

Henry, my post was rebutting a remark about "focusing on the movies" equating to focusing on combat ability. I was pointing out that most of the characters don't contribute through their combat prowess, so your rebuttal doesn't seem to be rebutting my rebuttal except for the part where you contradict me about Chewbacca beating up stormtroopers--something I just don't recall happening a lot.

Well, in Star Wars, piloting skill IS combat ability - it's being used in the heat of battle to keep from getting killed. Chewie beats up on Imperials in two places -- in the Death Star comm room, and tossing them in RotJ out of the ST-ST like rag dolls.

I really gotta get my book back and look at the droid rules, because C3P0 and R2-D2 are good examples of almost entirely noncombatant characters who make contributions. Does R2-D2 have a class?

Threepio has levels of Noble (no surprise there) and Artoo has levels of Scoundrel. His only offensive weapon is little low-damage ion blaster.

 

[Felon]

Well, in Star Wars, piloting skill IS combat ability - it's being used in the heat of battle to keep from getting killed. Chewie beats up on Imperials in two places -- in the Death Star comm room, and tossing them in RotJ out of the ST-ST like rag dolls.

Threepio has levels of Noble (no surprise there) and Artoo has levels of Scoundrel. His only offensive weapon is little low-damage ion blaster.

OK, Henry, so, um...do you actually have a particular side in this debate? Are the movie characters all effective combatants, or are some of them pretty handily described as noncombatants? Because the whole discussion stemmed from the lack of noncombat feats followed by the assertion that being true to the movies means all characters should have some combat capability.

 

[Henry]

Because the whole discussion stemmed from the lack of noncombat feats followed by the assertion that being true to the movies means all characters should have some combat capability.

I was pointing out movie examples of exactly where these two characters DID show combat capability. Other than the droids, there wasn't a single main character who didn't have a chance to shine in combat. Since it was Luke's story, his abilities were focused on, but the rest never ran and hid from a good fight, either. Han shows proficiency in combat, just not hand-to-hand, and Chewie one-on-one was knocking over imperials like tenpins.

EDIT: I will add, though, that I'd love to see possible expansion to more noncombat stuff in future supplements. There are people who want to play it, so it would be nice to cater to that in at least a limited fashion - to give them more examples to base their own stuff off of more than anything.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

OK, Henry, so, um...do you actually have a particular side in this debate? Are the movie characters all effective combatants, or are some of them pretty handily described as noncombatants? Because the whole discussion stemmed from the lack of noncombat feats followed by the assertion that being true to the movies means all characters should have some combat capability.

R2 and 3PO are described as (comparatively) low-level characters. The example characters seem to assume that for each trilogy, only three characters were actually PCs: Luke, Han and Leia for the OT, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme for the prequels. Chewbacca, Artoo, Threepio and Lando all seem to be statted up as 'cohorts' (to borrow a D&D term), while characters like OT Obi-Wan, Yoda and Qui-Gon (unstatted) would be temporary NPC allies.

In all seriousness, I can't see Threepio as a mid-to-high-level character. Artoo, perhaps, but his lack of combat abilities is reflected by the fact HE HAS NO WEAPONS.

While you can say that the non-Jedi characters didn't display much in the way of combat ability, consider this: what battles did they LOSE? Whenever Han or Leia got into a blaster fight, they retreated only in the face of overwhelming numbers (and took down significant numbers of stormtroopers, who are fairly tough in Saga); compare that to how the rebel troopers fared in the opening sequence of Star Wars. Lando is statted up as only 7th level (compared to 10th, 11th and 12th levels for Leia, Han and Luke); he's competent in a fight as a heroic character should be, but nothing really special. Despite having no reason whatsoever to be combat-trained, Padme was reasonably effective with a blaster in the first two prequels, certainly moreso than any of the mooks on either side - simply by virtue of being the cinematic equivalent of a PC.

I think one thing you have to keep in mind, especially when converting characters, is that most non-combatants should have most of their levels in nonheroic classes - which don't get bonus feats. A nonheroic 20 has only 7 feats (8 if human), and of those, at least three are likely to be Skill Training. Such a character can have a skill bonus of +20 before stat mods, which is more than adequate to make them 'the best at their task' while leaving them essentially useless in combat (50 hp, threshold and defenses likely hovering around 10-12, no weapon proficiencies). A few noble or scoundrel levels (if the character needs certain talents, for example) won't make them suddenly a combat monster fit to challenge Darth Vader, either - or even Luke.

EDIT: With all that said, I certainly wouldn't object to porting (the few) noncombat feats from other d20 system games. I just don't think they are needed, or belong, in the core book - any more than you see much in the way of noncombat feats in the d20 Modern or D&D core books.

 

[Victim]

Your remark about Chewie puzzles me. So, if someone is inactive during a fight, that doesn't show them being a noncombatant? Lando's clumsyness isn't damning?

When do we see these guys at their full potential as awesome warriors? For Han, it's pretty much limited to dogfighting in the Milllenium Falcon, not kicking butt as a gunslinger.

Han does at least okay in pretty much every other firefight in the series. Chewie tosses around or one punches stormtroopers (alas, the ratings mean that we can't actually seem him follow up on the promise to tear someone's arms off ) when he isn't stealing a vehicle and dominating.

Chewbacca standing around doing nothing but Aid Another feels more like the player being absent, bored, tired, confused, whatever than an actual statement of ability. Anyone comes off like a loser if they just use Aid endlessly, no matter what the character can do on their own.

And I can totally see even a PC failing climb checks like Lando. It happened fairly recently in a DnD game to a swashbuckler/wizard (soon to be Abjurant Champion). Not having Climb and some bad luck meant that he spent much of a battle just trying to get into it. Should all combat characters have Climb? It doesn't seem stricly necessary especially if the game has combat paths less reliant on STR. If not, why is it surprising than an otherwise competent guy struggles when thrust out of his element. Is a fighter not really a combat character because he can't swim in his armor? Really, it seems especially like a PC for Lando to fail at climbing. "haha, who needs climb? I just have a handy grappling hook launcher gadget that makes the DC 5. Instead I took X, since it might have some combat use." "You're in disguise as one of Jabba's guards and don't have your normal gear. Regretably, grappling hooks are not standard gear for them." "Crap."

 

[Henry]

And I can totally see even a PC failing climb checks like Lando. It happened fairly recently in a DnD game to a swashbuckler/wizard (soon to be Abjurant Champion). Not having Climb and some bad luck meant that he spent much of a battle just trying to get into it.

You too, huh? I had a recent session full of nothing higher than a 4 in 9 separate d20 rolls, including everything from changing dice to rolling in trays!

I think just showing the Sarlacc Pit scene is a bad example, because cinematically speaking, that scene was all about showing Luke's completion of his training, his coming into full Jedi Knighthood. A better example would have been the escape from Clud City - everyone had a part, even Lando and Lobot. Another good example was the raid on the Endor Moon Base. Chewie, Leia, Han, all displayed their capability in combat.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

In all seriousness, I can't see Threepio as a mid-to-high-level character. Artoo, perhaps, but his lack of combat abilities is reflected by the fact HE HAS NO WEAPONS.

R2's the one with the enormous Wisdom and Perception scores, seeing and thinking of things no one else does, and he's the computer guy. Also, while he has no weapons organic to his design, plug him into the Death Star and he could probably hijack the superlaser.

3PO...he's comic relief, which means he passes out bonuses. Also, he does have social skills. You don't have to shoot a blaster if you can convince someone else to shoot it for you.

Brad