Spoilers Star Wars: The Acolyte [Spoilers]

[Zardnaar]

So ... Tossing around a few ideas here based upon where we have ended up.

All speculation, but trying to follow what I think are the little hints they have been dropping in each episode.

1) Osha and Mae represent the light and dark sides of the Force (non-controversial I think). Mae's proclivity for power and vengeance has been highlighted throughout the story. It was especially brought up in the flashback episode where she started off controlling (almost crushing?) the butterfly creature. Plus her desire to control her twin throughout childhood, and her automatic default to aggression when she does not get her way. This contrasts with Osha's more gentle and open nature throughout.

2) Qimir may or may not be an actual Sith, but I think we can safely assume that he has been collecting Jedi and Sith material for ages. I think his "cover" as a broker and collector of information and supplies actually is his real background. Perhaps early in his career or life he stumbled across forbidden Sith knowledge, leading him down the path where we are now. He very well could be the one who rescued Mae from Brendok, since he does seem to travel a great deal searching for things. Is he a failed Jedi? Maybe? Not sure on that point, we need more information.

3) For what happened on Brendok. I think it is clear that the Jedi were coming to collect Osha at the very least and perhaps Mae as well after the initial assessment. I think the blood tests confirmed the unnatural origin of the twins, and that was viewed as a threat. Did the Jedi murder the witches in cold blood? I don't think that will actually be the case (but we shall see), but there may have been some sort of fight involved.

I suspect that Koril was somehow involved in the Brendok fight. We saw multiple times in the flashback that she was extremely protective of Osha and Mae, to the point of almost defying her superior in regards to how to deal with the Jedi presence. She was also the one ( as far as we can tell) who "possessed" Korbin. Perhaps to force her way of seeing things on the rest of the witches (who basically all appeared to disagree with her in the scenes we saw) she possessed Korbin again and started an incident. The rest of the Jedi became involved, lots of witches dead, etc. I think she also possessed Mae at some point during the flashback scenes before the fire. Really hard to tell with the lighting, but I think at one point right around when Mae seals the doors on Osha her eyes go pitch black just like when Korbin was possessed.

All of this was brought back up by Osha remarking to Yord that her mother could enter people's minds and confuse them after he says the unknown assailant (Qimir as we know now) was able to. That was to partially explain the battle, but I think a hint dropped for us to look back.

4) Or even zanier theory, Koril is a Sith plant in the witches. She carries the twins and births them after a witchy ritual (or cloning or the Star Wars equivalent of in-vitro) despite her superior being the "mother." But she was in the witches to steer them to the dark side path to prepare for the Sith to return. She therefore manipulated things to ensure she would be the vessel for this experiment. Giving one of the twins a boost in the dark side energy (Mae) to help push things forwards.

5) OK, and now for something really out there. We have the twins switching positions in the narrative at the end of episode 5. Do we eventually end up with some sort of bizarre fusion of the two of them? Were the witches creating twins on purpose to eventually create some sort of balance in the force? One light side, one dark side, proper life experience results in the two bridging the gap between traditions and then a witchy ritual combines the two into one being to achieve the balance? This is why Ansaya was willing to consider letting Osha join the Jedi in the flashback, because she had full understanding of how the plan would work, while Koril was not fully in on it (or was, but disagreed)?

In this case, the Jedi become involved because they do not see the full picture either, and this forces some sort of crisis that ends up with the flashback scenes of fire and death.

We will see how it turns out.

Cheers

One of the witches in the background had hooded robe.

Speculation about one of them being the master hasn't gone away. How would Qimir know about the events on Brendok he wasn't there?

 

[pukunui]

How would Qimir know about the events on Brendok he wasn't there?

Mae could have talked to him about it and/or he got inside her head and viewed her memories of it.

 

[Omand]

Mae could have talked to him about it and/or he got inside her head and viewed her memories of it.

Indeed. Based upon Mae's personality I think she would have been more than willing to spill her guts and her story to anyone listening about the terrible Jedi.

For all we know, Qimir was the one who found Mae and picked her up after the massacre. Likely would not have been hard to fake being slightly compassionate to gain her confidence.

Cheers

 

[pukunui]

Likely would not have been hard to fake being slightly compassionate to gain her confidence.

I don’t think he would even need to fake it. “I’m just like you – someone the Jedi think shouldn’t exist” isn’t a lie.


On a different note, something this show has got me grappling with again is the conflict between my adult understanding of the Jedi Order and what my child self wanted it to be. As a kid, watching the Star Wars movies, I saw the Jedi as the innocent victims of Sith aggression. They were the "guardians of peace and justice" for 1000 generations. They were the undisputed good guys who were unfairly undone by the indisputably evil Sith.

Kid me doesn't like how first Lucas and then Disney sought to portray the Jedi Order as wrong / corrupt / bad in many ways. Adult me understands that the order became institutionalized by becoming the Old Republic's official peacekeepers and that that institutionalization would inevitably lead to politically corrupt practices -- and that this is all makes for more nuanced storytelling. But kid me yearns for a more black-and-white, good vs evil portrayal.

Kid me - and maybe even adult me - is especially disappointed with Disney for making it seem like the Jedi Order not only deserved to be taken out by the Sith but seemingly doesn't deserve to exist at all given how they set Luke up to repeat the same mistakes and ultimately fail. I guess they want Rey to be the one who builds a new Jedi Order that is acceptable to modern audiences. (Kid me is upset that Disney not only didn't let any of OT heroes live happily ever after but also burned all their accomplishment to the ground.)

So ... I think The Acolyte is refreshing to me because it's set in a time that isn't part of the grander Skywalker saga* but it still troubles kid me because it shows a ponderous, conspiratorial, reputation-conscious Jedi Order that isn't clearly the "good guys". For instance, we have some sort of shadowy group led by Vernestra hiding things from the High Council, and we have well-respected Masters like Sol who have clearly done something bad.

TL;DR: I'm feeling conflicted about the Jedi Order. My inner child wants them to be the undisputed good guys he thought they were even as my rational adult mind understands that things are never that black-and-white.


*even if it maybe loosely foreshadows Anakin's hinted-at immaculate conception

 

[Zardnaar]

I don’t think he would even need to fake it. “I’m just like you – someone the Jedi think shouldn’t exist” isn’t a lie.


On a different note, something this show has got me grappling with again is the conflict between my adult understanding of the Jedi Order and what my child self wanted it to be. As a kid, watching the Star Wars movies, I saw the Jedi as the innocent victims of Sith aggression. They were the "guardians of peace and justice" for 1000 generations. They were the undisputed good guys who were unfairly undone by the evil Sith.

Lucas himself muddied the waters with the prequels, and Disney has since doubled down on not only making it seem like the Jedi Order deserved to be taken out by the Sith but also make it seem like they don't deserve to exist at all given how they've now portrayed Luke as a failure who repeated the same mistakes as his predecessors. Disney has now set up Rey to build a new Jedi Order that actually works as the "good guys", I guess.

Adult me can understand the realism of having a corrupted organization in a long, slow decline for centuries that is wiped out by ancient enemies. Kid me doesn't like it. Kid me still wants it to be that the good guys were hard done by the bad guys and that it was ultimately a temporary setback. Kid me wanted a "happily ever after" story, which Disney refused to give us with the sequels. Adult me gets that they couldn't continue with Han, Leia, and Luke in their prime due to their respective actors' ages, and so they had to settle for passing the torch instead, but kid me grumbled about it. I think the biggest thing I don't like about the sequels is still how the story burned all of the OT heroes' accomplishments to the ground.

The Acolyte is refreshing because it's set in a time that isn't part of the grander Skywalker saga* but it still troubles kid me because it shows a ponderous, conspiratorial Jedi Order that isn't clearly the "good guys". We have some sort of shadowy council led by Vernestra hiding things from the High Council, and we have well-respected Masters like Sol who have clearly done something bad. I'll admit I liked Yord, even if he was Lawful Stupid. I also liked Jecki. But since we didn't care if a bunch of nameless Jedi got killed, we had to have some likeable named characters get killed too. That's just basic storytelling, right?

TL;DR: I'm feeling conflicted about the Jedi Order. My inner child wants them to be the undisputed good guys he thought they were even as my rational adult mind understands that things are never that black-and-white.




*even if it maybe loosely foreshadows Anakin's hinted-at immaculate conception

I think this might be a large amount of anger towards Disney and Jedi portrayal. Legends was more nuanced and Luke wasn't as dogmatic. Disney doubled down on it and pushing the stupid Jedi angle.

I don't mind Jedi falling to the darkside or be8ng stupid but don't over do it along with flip a switch redemption.

Personal head cannon leans towards a decentralized Jedi order (rule of twos) serving the living force from Jedi. And it's up to the individual Jedi to be a Jedi monk or start a family or whatever.

Disney played it really safe and they've had it for 12 years. 1991 to 2003 more variety in pretty much everything and Tales of the Jedi/Old Republic was 8 years old in 2003.

I dont miss most of Legends materials but a more nuanced force take and more traditions was kinda great. Legends witches were more interesting they rode Rancors and were fleshed out more in 1 novel than 12 years of Disney. The dark side ones were Nightsisters. Some Disney takes are better tbf eg Deathstar backstory.

Legends Easter eggs are great (E wings, cortosis etc) but if you're lifting large chunks may as well go with a bit more faithful adoptions vs half assing it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As a kid, watching the Star Wars movies, I saw the Jedi as the innocent victims of Sith aggression. They were the "guardians of peace and justice" for 1000 generations. They were the undisputed good guys who were unfairly undone by the evil Sith.

I always find this interesting, because I was born in 1978, so watched all the SW movies as a relatively small child, and again a young teen, and so on, and that was never how I felt about the Jedi. That was never the vibe I got from them. Perhaps because I was fascinated that this Darth Vader guy used to be one of them, and he was a Very Bad Man.

But a lot of people clearly did get the vibe you did! So I don't know what the difference was. I think I watched the movies fewer times than a lot of people, and a lot of the SF/fantasy I was exposed to growing up was somewhat grey (I mean, I'd consider Dr Who somewhat grey, especially prior to nuWho), especially the stuff that didn't seem to insult my intelligence even as a child (Buck Rogers, for example, I genuinely felt insulted and a bit bored by, even aged 8). And I didn't see the police or the military or the church as "good guys" - which a combination of upbringing, media exposure and experience - I saw The Untouchables aged about 10 - it scarred me for life lol - and I got that Elliott Ness was not actually a good person, just a very brave thug working for the government, for example. I wonder if all that together is what made it tremendously easy for me to accept that the Jedi were "not great" in the past.

I think this might be a large amount of anger towards Disney and Hedi portrayal. Legends was more nuanced and Luke wasn't as dogmatic. Disney doubled down on it and pushing the stupid Hedi angle.

Nah.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

Linear time exists.

It's just misplaced anger that should have been directed at Lucas if fans were going to be mad at anyone. Disney didn't "double down" on the Jedi being stupid, and didn't even reprise the idea (which is different to doubling down, which would require saying they were extra-stupid). Lucas had absolutely clearly established the Jedi were idiots as a group in the PT, and Filoni had been over the same territory and nuanced it a lot whilst strongly maintaining the idea that, at best, the Jedi were a bunch of dupes with too-limited minds and overly restrictive ideas about behaviour and who should be allowed to wield the force.

People blaming Disney for that are just not follow the facts.

Legends was never nuanced and it's bizarre to call it that. Rather it was confused and messy because different writers had different ideas. Some writers even then were writing about the Jedi being dumb/bad (even before the PT), others were basically trying to make Luke in an actual saint (but also a James Bond-esque sexyman figure).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Personal head cannon

Personal head canon is 100% the problem and the real reason people got mad about this.

SW obsessives all read a ton of trashy-as-hell Legends novels, some of which ludicrously idealized the Jedi, and thus their headcanon for the post-OT era was basically rainbows and flowers for Luke particularly and they were certain he'd raise a huge horde of super-nice Jedi.

We have some sort of shadowy council led by Vernestra hiding things from the High Council

I mean, shadowy council or just middle-management behaving like middle-management lol?

 

[MarkB]

I don’t think he would even need to fake it. “I’m just like you – someone the Jedi think shouldn’t exist” isn’t a lie.


On a different note, something this show has got me grappling with again is the conflict between my adult understanding of the Jedi Order and what my child self wanted it to be. As a kid, watching the Star Wars movies, I saw the Jedi as the innocent victims of Sith aggression. They were the "guardians of peace and justice" for 1000 generations. They were the undisputed good guys who were unfairly undone by the indisputably evil Sith.

Kid me doesn't like how first Lucas and then Disney sought to portray the Jedi Order as wrong / corrupt / bad in many ways. Adult me understands that the order became institutionalized by becoming the Old Republic's official peacekeepers and that that institutionalization would inevitably lead to politically corrupt practices -- and that this is all makes for more nuanced storytelling. But kid me yearns for a more black-and-white, good vs evil portrayal.

Kid me - and maybe even adult me - is especially disappointed with Disney for making it seem like the Jedi Order not only deserved to be taken out by the Sith but seemingly doesn't deserve to exist at all given how they set Luke up to repeat the same mistakes and ultimately fail. I guess they want Rey to be the one who builds a new Jedi Order that is acceptable to modern audiences. (Kid me is upset that Disney not only didn't let any of OT heroes live happily ever after but also burned all their accomplishment to the ground.)

So ... I think The Acolyte is refreshing to me because it's set in a time that isn't part of the grander Skywalker saga* but it still troubles kid me because it shows a ponderous, conspiratorial, reputation-conscious Jedi Order that isn't clearly the "good guys". For instance, we have some sort of shadowy group led by Vernestra hiding things from the High Council, and we have well-respected Masters like Sol who have clearly done something bad.

TL;DR: I'm feeling conflicted about the Jedi Order. My inner child wants them to be the undisputed good guys he thought they were even as my rational adult mind understands that things are never that black-and-white.


*even if it maybe loosely foreshadows Anakin's hinted-at immaculate conception

Yeah, unfortunately Lucas really doubled down on the creepier and more dubious aspects of the Jedi order in the prequels. Adult Luke being too young to begin the training was one thing, but it turns out that pre-teen Anakin is also too old - the Jedi prefer to take them on pretty much before they can walk and talk, and severing ties with their parents is part of the package.

And guarding one's feelings is no longer enough - now you're supposed to suppress them completely because even the slightest hint of fear or attachment opens you up to the dark side, so the ideal Jedi is as emotionless as a Vulcan.

The wonder isn't that Anakin fell so easily. The wonder is that more Jedi don't.

 

[Zardnaar]

Personal head canon is 100% the problem and the real reason people got mad about this.

SW obsessives all read a ton of trashy-as-hell Legends novels, some of which ludicrously idealized the Jedi, and thus their headcanon for the post-OT era was basically rainbows and flowers for Luke particularly and they were certain he'd raise a huge horde of super-nice Jedi.


I mean, shadowy council or just middle-management behaving like middle-management lol?

Luke raised Jedi falling to the dark side and things like that. In broad terns you had the unifying force and living force concepts.

Luke and others also studied with other force traditions. Some of the last novels explored that a lot and were building up to a passing the torch moment from Luke.

My head canon isn't this is how the Jedi are but more to avoid the pitfalls of the PT era ones. Seems silly to clone the old order and serve the republic 4.0 take.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Is he a failed Jedi?

I think probably not because given his age almost certainly Sol or Jord would recognize him. And his anti-Jedi comments have shown a sort of "external" understanding of the Jedi (not an incorrect one though). It may be his parents or one of them were Force users who came into conflict with the Jedi (but not necessarily Sith), and he may have been rejected by the Jedi testing (which I wouldn't call a "failed" Jedi, myself, because he never was one).

Luke raised Jedi falling to the dark side and things like that. In broad terns you had the unifying force and living force concepts.

Luke and others also studied with other force traditions.

Like I said, rainbows and flowers. It always worked out for Luke. It always went well for Luke. He always ultimately had the right idea. Because Legends was basically slightly above-average fanfiction for the most part, only instead of self-inserts, people inserted themselves into SW characters for the most part.

Do the jedi do something to failed padwans to stop them using the Force in civvy street?

Not in current lore, no. Basically there are three situations for leaving the Jedi order that don't involve falling to the Dark Side.

1) You fail the test to be recruited by the Jedi (usually taken as a very small child) and/or your parents won't give you up and the Jedi can't wheedle and manipulate them into doing it. As such the Jedi seem to just assume you won't amount to much, Force-wise, without training (which does reflect thousands of years of experience, to be fair), and leave you to it.

2) You hit the test to be a Padawan and fail it (depending on sources anything up to the majority of recruits fail here). In this case, in theory you can go home, but given you were essentially taken by colonizers aged like 4, and raised in their culture, you probably don't want to. So you join the Jedi Service Corps. They don't take away your Force powers or anything, but you don't get a lightsaber, and you're just trained to be an engineer or guard or doctor or floorsweeper or whatever for the Jedi. You still get to prance around in a semi-Jedi outfit, it seems. (This is fairly recent lore, like 5 years old maybe.)

3) You pass and become a Jedi Padawan at least, but you quit - this is very rare and does seem to make the Jedi mad, but there's no sign they exactly punish you for it - in the cases we know of they sort of just sulk about it and sometimes let people back in. IIRC Vernestra Rwoh may even have quit the order at one point early on before rejoining (I might be confusing her with another High Republic era Jedi though).