Spoilers Star Wars: The Acolyte [Spoilers]

[Zardnaar]

I think probably not because given his age almost certainly Sol or Jord would recognize him. And his anti-Jedi comments have shown a sort of "external" understanding of the Jedi (not an incorrect one though). It may be his parents or one of them were Force users who came into conflict with the Jedi (but not necessarily Sith), and he may have been rejected by the Jedi testing (which I wouldn't call a "failed" Jedi, myself, because he never was one).


Like I said, rainbows and flowers. It always worked out for Luke. It always went well for Luke. He always ultimately had the right idea. Because Legends was basically slightly above-average fanfiction for the most part, only instead of self-inserts, people inserted themselves into SW characters for the most part.

And yet the more popular parts sold tens of millions.

And the best if it (which is what people like/remember) blows a lot of Disney stuff out of the water.

And Disney outside Disney+ is about on par with Legends but they're not generating the same peaks. Vader and Thrawn stuff seems popular, rest of it not so much.

They don't have any equivalent of the Thrawn Trilogy, KotOR, Jedi Academy/X-wing games. They have the Zahn stuff, Vader comics and Lost Stars.

Their leading trilogy (Aftermath)was written essentially by a fan and Filoni is basically retconning it.

 

[pukunui]

I don't mind Jedi falling to the darkside or be8ng stupid but don't over do it along with flip a switch redemption.

Ah yes. Vader's deathbed redemption is something that has never sat well with me. He should not be able to get off killing so many innocents that easily!

I dont miss most of Legends materials but a more nuanced force take and more traditions was kinda great. Legends witches were more interesting they rode Rancors and were fleshed out more in 1 novel than 12 years of Disney. The dark side ones were Nightsisters. Some Disney takes are better tbf eg Deathstar backstory.

Yes, more non-Jedi/Sith Force users would be nice.

I always find this interesting, because I was born in 1978, so watched all the SW movies as a relatively small child, and again a young teen, and so on, and that was never how I felt about the Jedi. That was never the vibe I got from them. Perhaps because I was fascinated that this Darth Vader guy used to be one of them, and he was a Very Bad Man.

But a lot of people clearly did get the vibe you did! So I don't know what the difference was.

I was born in 1981, so not long after you. I'm not sure how I came to see it so differently.

I saw The Untouchables aged about 10 - it scarred me for life lol - and I got that Elliott Ness was not actually a good person, just a very brave thug working for the government, for example. I wonder if all that together is what made it tremendously easy for me to accept that the Jedi were "not great" in the past.

I also saw The Untouchables around that age but I have to admit I don't remember it all that well, so I guess it didn't scar me for life!

It's just misplaced anger that should have been directed at Lucas if fans were going to be mad at anyone. Disney didn't "double down" on the Jedi being stupid, and didn't even reprise the idea (which is different to doubling down, which would require saying they were extra-stupid). Lucas had absolutely clearly established the Jedi were idiots as a group in the PT, and Filoni had been over the same territory and nuanced it a lot whilst strongly maintaining the idea that, at best, the Jedi were a bunch of dupes with too-limited minds and overly restrictive ideas about behaviour and who should be allowed to wield the force.

People blaming Disney for that are just not follow the facts.

I say that Disney doubled down on Lucas' choices with respect to how they've portrayed Luke. In the sequel trilogy, they made him a failure living as a hermit. In The Mandalorian, they portrayed him as repeating the same mistakes as his predecessors, instead of being the more progressive Jedi he was portrayed as in the EU. Of course, the EU also doomed his New Jedi Order, but at least it let them survive for a bit longer than Disney has.

Yeah, unfortunately Lucas really doubled down on the creepier and more dubious aspects of the Jedi order in the prequels. Adult Luke being too young to begin the training was one thing, but it turns out that pre-teen Anakin is also too old - the Jedi prefer to take them on pretty much before they can walk and talk, and severing ties with their parents is part of the package.

And guarding one's feelings is no longer enough - now you're supposed to suppress them completely because even the slightest hint of fear or attachment opens you up to the dark side, so the ideal Jedi is as emotionless as a Vulcan.

The wonder isn't that Anakin fell so easily. The wonder is that more Jedi don't.

Agreed. Now the whole child soldier thing - I see that as a tragedy brought on by Sith manipulation. But having the Jedi Order insist on taking children before they get too emotionally attached - yeah, that's problematic. And it didn't have to be! That's entirely on Lucas.

One of my biggest arguments against the prequels back in the day was that I didn't want to know exactly how Anakin / the Jedi Order / the Old Republic fell. I wanted it left to my imagination. I still kinda feel that way, but time and age have softened my stance there, I guess. I can watch Revenge of the Sith and enjoy it for what it is, for instance. And I did enjoy The Clone Wars and The Bad Batch.

I can also watch the sequels and enjoy them on their own terms. What I don't like about the sequels is how the OT heroes are all portrayed as failures and everything they worked so hard to accomplish is either already in ruins or is ruined/undone over the course of the trilogy. It didn't have to be that way. They could have been portrayed as elder statesmen willingly passing on their torches to the younger generation instead of washed-up has-beens from whom the younger folks have to pick up the pieces to reassemble the puzzle they dropped.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll circle back round to The Acolyte. Again, I find it refreshing that it's not a Skywalker story, even if I don't like how the Jedi Order is being portrayed here. I just want to see the Jedi portrayed as "good guys", though. Is that really too much to ask?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Agreed. Now the whole child soldier thing - I see that as a tragedy brought on by Sith manipulation. But having the Jedi Order insist on taking children before they get too emotionally attached - yeah, that's problematic. And it didn't have to be! That's entirely on Lucas.

I think what people don't always get is that Lucas is more of an anti-imperialist, anti-fascist, anti-colonialist than it might seem at first glance. I mean it's easy to tell from some interviews with him, where he talks about his political views. And looking from that perspective, I think it's very easy to see how he probably never had the Jedi down as pure and unblemished bastions of light in his mind.

I just want to see the Jedi portrayed as "good guys", though. Is that really too much to ask?

I mean, yes? Lucas didn't want it after the first trilogy. He went to huge lengths to show they weren't.

Why would they suddenly become "the good guys"? They're already reliably the "good-er guys", just not perfect saints and angels as you seem to be wanting here.

They could have been portrayed as elder statesmen willingly passing on their torches to the younger generation instead of washed-up has-beens from whom the younger folks have to pick up the pieces to reassemble the puzzle they dropped.

If you can't see how the former is an outright BAD STORY and the latter is a much better and more interesting story, then you are not thinking critically about this, I would suggest.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not a Skywalker story is fine. If you're making VII, VIII, IX though you probably want to push skywalkers harder than they did (and not kill them off).

Luke's NJO ended up winning bye and spawned a new force tradition as well.

Disney's also doubling down on on ST filler while ignoring their own books and g9mics. Battle of Jakku woukd make a great Tales of type story. Thise books came out almost a decade ago but they don't really follow them up.

Old legends kinda did that better.

Ir9nically Legends Luje gave us a more progressive and diverse Jedi Order. In the 1990s.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Old legends kinda did that better.

The old Legends didn't do anything well. It was dire.

Ir9nically Legends Luje gave us a more progressive and diverse Jedi Order. In the 1990s.

This is just re-writing history lol.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think what people don't always get is that Lucas is more of an anti-imperialist, anti-fascist, anti-colonialist than it might seem at first glance. I mean it's easy to tell from some interviews with him, where he talks about his political views. And looking from that perspective, I think it's very easy to see how he probably never had the Jedi down as pure and unblemished bastions of light in his mind.


I mean, yes? Lucas didn't want it after the first trilogy. He went to huge lengths to show they weren't.

Why would they suddenly become "the good guys"? They're already reliably the "good-er guys", just not perfect saints and angels as you seem to be wanting here.


If you can't see how the former is an outright BAD STORY and the latter is a much better and more interesting story, then you are not thinking critically about this, I would suggest.

Luke's Jedi weren't saints. Jedi Academy novels one of his first pupils fell to the dark side.They were more lenient around things like being dogmatic and family. Tbf we don't really know much about Luke's NJO because Disney didn't bother and killed it off early. Own goal perhaps.

 

[billd91]

I can also watch the sequels and enjoy them on their own terms. What I don't like about the sequels is how the OT heroes are all portrayed as failures and everything they worked so hard to accomplish is either already in ruins or is ruined/undone over the course of the trilogy. It didn't have to be that way. They could have been portrayed as elder statesmen willingly passing on their torches to the younger generation instead of washed-up has-beens from whom the younger folks have to pick up the pieces to reassemble the puzzle they dropped.

I don't think they're portray just as failures. Leia IS an elder stateswoman. She didn't fail. The Republic failed to remain vigilant about a return of the Empire's ideology.
And before we just sweep Han and Luke up as failures, consider how damaged they are by their experiences. Traumatized by the prior war? Sure. Traumatized by Ben Solo being seduced to the dark side and annihilating Luke's school? Abso-effing-lutely. Fortunately, Leia's strong enough to keep going and fight the First Order. Her success at remaining strong and focused is AMAZING.

Do heroes get to have happy endings? Maybe. For a while. But the universe still produces problems to deal with. Destructive ideologies return. We're seeing it in real life... why should the Star Wars universe be immune to it?

 

[Zardnaar]

The old Legends didn't do anything well. It was dire.


This is just re-writing history lol.

How much of it did you read? If it was so dire why are Disney using Thrawn and bringing in Revan?

Zahns still writing Thrawn books. They're still the big selling new canon books. Why is the Old Republic game still going and why was KotOR ported to the switch? And why do fan made mods of Disney stiff usually fail to hit critical mass and die off? Why are they making a Thrawn movie?

Qimir coukd be a stand out character. Potentially a new Revan failing that Exar Kun.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Luke's Jedi weren't saints. Jedi Academy novels one of his first pupils fell to the dark side.They were more lenient around things like being dogmatic and family. Tbf we don't really know much about Luke's NJO because Disney didn't bother and killed it off early. Own goal perhaps.

Luke was a saintly figure somehow mashed up with a sexy James Bond type.

Everything was resolved pretty easily compared to stuff that happened previously.

Threats were always external.

The Jedi Academy novels were absolutely rainbows and unicorns. Definitely not an own goal to kill off the ghastly NJO books.

How much of it did you read? If it was so dire why are Disney using Thrawn and bringing in Revan?

The stuff you just called "filler" lol. They're bringing that stuff back because it's useful world-building for the most part. Thrawn has been mediocre as hell in live-action, I note.

Why us the Old Republic game still going and why was KotOR ported to the switch?

RE: SWTOR, because the SWTOR's licence allows EA to keep making money off it, and Disney would probably have to pay out big to pull it. I have no doubt Disney regret the deals Lucasfilm made there. Re: KotOR because it and it's sequel are still the only Jedi RPGs out there and they can run on a weakass machine like the Switch where Jedi Survivor etc. cannot.

Pretty simple stuff.

 

[pukunui]

I mean, yes? Lucas didn't want it after the first trilogy. He went to huge lengths to show they weren't.

Why would they suddenly become "the good guys"? They're already reliably the "good-er guys", just not perfect saints and angels as you seem to be wanting here.

I've already said that I didn't want the prequel trilogy, and I didn't / don't like how Lucas portrayed the Jedi Order in it. What more can I say? We're talking about what my inner child wants / wanted. It's entirely irrational and subjective.

I don't think they're portray just as failures. Leia IS an elder stateswoman. She didn't fail. The Republic failed to remain vigilant about a return of the Empire's ideology.
And before we just sweep Han and Luke up as failures, consider how damaged they are by their experiences. Traumatized by the prior war? Sure. Traumatized by Ben Solo being seduced to the dark side and annihilating Luke's school? Abso-effing-lutely. Fortunately, Leia's strong enough to keep going and fight the First Order. Her success at remaining strong and focused is AMAZING.

Do heroes get to have happy endings? Maybe. For a while. But the universe still produces problems to deal with. Destructive ideologies return. We're seeing it in real life... why should the Star Wars universe be immune to it?

Leia got pushed out of the New Republic, which then gets destroyed. Yes, she's continuing to fight the good fight, but she's struggling to do so, constantly on the back foot against the First Order. When she asks for help, no one comes (at first). I'll acknowledge that her portrayal is the best of the three, and it's highly probable that, had Carrie Fisher lived, Leia's story would have turned out differently in the last film.

Luke, meanwhile, has had his nephew turn on him and destroy everything he built, resulting in him becoming a hermit just like Yoda/Obi-Wan. His subsequent appearances in the Mando-verse have him not learning from his experiences as a "new" Jedi and instead just trying to repeat the past, which as we already know, is doomed to failure.

Han's relationship with Leia has fallen apart. He's lost his beloved Falcon, and he's back to being a struggling smuggler again.

I don't agree that portraying our OT heroes in this way is better storytelling.