D&D 5E Starter Set Excerpt 5

[Ruin Explorer]

Hmm. I've always seen goblins as shading more towards lawful, myself. They tend to be presented as fairly servile, being used as cannon fodder for stronger and more aggressive races (typically hobgoblins). In the absence of a stronger force, they tend to be more feral, though.

SRD has them as NE in 3.XE, they were LE in the 2E MM I think, but sometimes CE in 2E adventures.

Mind Flayers also seem distinctly civilized from my perspective. Their whole existence revolves around the community, and the elder brain at its center. They can't reproduce without the elder brain. And their very survival is aided by the cultivation of civilization of other sentients, so that they have centralized feeding locations.

Sure, but I'd never, ever put them as "the most civilized" or even in the top 10. They don't build huge cities (or aren't known for it), or massive empires (in the present), or command legions or the like. I see no reason to put them at 10, and lots not to.

 

[DMZ2112]

Gotta disagree here. Pathfinder goblins are classic cartoon villains, which goes great with the high-fantasy vibe of Pathfinder in general.

Congratulations, sir, I've never been so stymied as to where to begin disagreeing!

Personally, I adore the Pathfinder goblins. They're so fun and crazed, but evil and vicious at the same time. They remind me of Labyrinth and other cinematic portrayals of goblins.They may be a joke, but it's black humour.

This might be my problem, admittedly. I've never had a taste for black humor. It's like a tuna sundae.

The skin tone is within the margin of printer's error for the sorts of illustrations that we see in D&D books.

That's some mighty fine hair splitting.

The ears are also very similar (gremlin-like, as has been noted upthread). As are the hair-styles.

I do find this aspect of the discussion kind of funny. What do goblin ears look like? Well, they look like gremlin ears. What do gremlin ears look like? Well... like goblin ears.

Nor do they seem to me to have different body types. There is a recurring motif of seemingly long limbs and powerful bodies. The bent legs presumably are intended to add dynamism to the picture, but also (presumably) allude to Tolkien's "bow-legged" orcs and goblins.

It's interesting how different perspective can be between individuals. I look at this picture and I see a very different, far more stocky build that is shorter of limb than previous depictions.

I will admit that I would have a tough time designing a helmet for those heads.

Every piece of art we've seen is like this. What relief after years of cartoony action scenes from the 2 big RPGs. Standing ovation for the art director from this guy.

Agreed.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Drow are one dead deity away from dissolving into utter chaos. Not sure that deserves a 10 on the civilized scale. I agree with TwoSix about the Mind Flayers.

Our civilization is 3 days of no new food from chaos. Complex civilizations ALWAYS exist on the edge of chaos.

 

[DMZ2112]

Our civilization is 3 days of no new food from chaos. Complex civilizations ALWAYS exist on the edge of chaos.

One could argue that we don't belong at a 10 on the scale, either.

 

[RichGreen]

I have to say, they did a pretty good job differentiating them from Pathfinder goblins. The jutting out jaws and narrow skull gives them a totally different silhouette than the bobblehead of the PF goblins. Add in olive skin tones compared to green, and the more human-like eyes compared to the red dots, and they pretty much moved the sliders as far in the other direction as possible while still staying in the range of "goblin".

Yep, I'm pretty sure they were keen to make them look different. I really like the Pathfinder goblins but these ones don't look at all humorous

Cheers


Rich

 

[Ruin Explorer]

One could argue that we don't belong at a 10 on the scale, either.

That'd be strange, though, as our civilization is the most complex and civilized that has ever existed.

Plus, in 5E, FR is the baseline. In the FR, last I heard, Drow have cities larger than any surface city, they have underground trade routes thousands and thousands of miles long, and so on. They have complex, scary societies, but they are scary in the way ONLY "civilized" societies can be.

Certainly Mind Flayers can't claim any of that, except in a distant past (or future, time-travelling bastards), whichis vague and legendary.

 

[Agamon]

Our civilization is 3 days of no new food from chaos. Complex civilizations ALWAYS exist on the edge of chaos.

The civilization is complex, but the creature is not. Without Lolth, drow are not civilized. They are treacherous, paranoid and predatory by nature. So I guess it depends on whether we're talking about the creatures or their civilization at the moment. Goblins can be structured too, given the appropriate encouragement.

 

[Stainless]

Hmmm, oversized, awkwardly shaped, and unbalanced weapons plus spiky armour that would do nothing but attract weapons to you and make you more vulnerable. How I hate this meme that has infested fantasy art for so many years. Not my taste I'm afraid. Still, for what it is, it's well executed and looks to be a notch up in art quality.

 

[TwoSix]

SRD has them as NE in 3.XE, they were LE in the 2E MM I think, but sometimes CE in 2E adventures.



Sure, but I'd never, ever put them as "the most civilized" or even in the top 10. They don't build huge cities (or aren't known for it), or massive empires (in the present), or command legions or the like. I see no reason to put them at 10, and lots not to.

Guess it depends on what we're using the scale to measure. What should be at 10 for D&D, the Netheril Empire or a village of modrons? Are we measuring extent of civilization, or the amount of tendency towards orderliness and organization?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The civilization is complex, but the creature is not. Without Lolth, drow are not civilized. They are treacherous, paranoid and predatory by nature. So I guess it depends on whether we're talking about the creatures or their civilization at the moment. Goblins can be structured too, given the appropriate encouragement.

By that logic, Mind Flayers absolutely cannot be civilized, or any Evil group, so yeah, nope, that doesn't work (it's also untrue in FR). The idea that Drow aren't complex is also pretty laughable.

Guess it depends on what we're using the scale to measure. What should be at 10 for D&D, the Netheril Empire or a village of modrons? Are we measuring extent of civilization, or the amount of tendency towards orderliness and organization?

Article says civilization, so the former. The latter is not civilization, it's orderliness.