STR vs. BAB (a.k.a. Is level adjustment worth it?)

[GakToid]

STR vs. BAB (a.k.a. Is level adjustment worth it?)

I've had a desire to play a half-dragon with wings. Since the Dragon Disciple no longer does this, the only other way would be to play a size large half-dragon. The lowest ECL for a large sized PC is a Half-Ogre. So I started comparing the cost (in levels) to a standard race.

The setup for all characters:
ECL 7, 12, 17
They all have the same equipment. (The equipment will affect the final numbers, but since all the equipment is the same, it'll affect all of the characters equally.)
They all follow the same skill, feat, ability increase plan.

House Rule: Half-Ogres have 2 giant HD and +1 LA.

Notes to consider:
Half-Orc: humanoid, medium, extra attack
Half-Orc/Half-Dragon: dragon, medium, dragon specials, +2 Con
Half-Ogre: giant, large, +2 Con
Half-Ogre/Half-Dragon: dragon, large, dragon specials, flight, +4 Con


Half-Orc Fighter 7
HD: 7d10 ~= 38.5 + 7*Con
BAB: 7/2
STR: 18 + 2 race + 1 level = 21 (+5 bonus)
Melee: +12/+7
Greatsword: 2d6 + 7 ~= 14

Half-Orc/Half-Dragon Fighter 4
HD: 4d10 ~= 22 + 4*Con
BAB: 4
STR: 18 + 2 race + 8 template + 1 level = 29 (+9 bonus)
Melee: +13
Greatsword: 2d6 + 13 ~= 20

Half-Ogre Fighter 4
HD: 2d8 + 4d10 ~= 31 + 6*Con
BAB: 5
STR: 18 + 6 race + 1 level = 25 (+7 bonus)
Melee: +11
Greatsword: 3d6 + 10 ~= 20.5

Half-Ogre/Half-Dragon Fighter 1
HD: 2d8 + 1d10 ~= 14.5 + 3*Con
BAB: 2
STR: 18 + 6 race + 8 template = 32 (+11 bonus)
Melee: +12
Greatsword: 3d6 + 16 ~= 26.5



Half-Orc Fighter 12
HD: 12d10 ~= 66 + 12*Con
BAB: 12/7/2
STR: 18 + 2 race + 3 level = 23 (+6 bonus)
Melee: +18/+13/+8
Greatsword: 2d6 + 9 ~= 16

Half-Orc/Half-Dragon Fighter 9
HD: 9d10 ~= 49.5 + 9*Con
BAB: 9/4
STR: 18 + 2 race + 8 template + 2 level = 30 (+10 bonus)
Melee: +19/+14
Greatsword: 2d6 + 15 ~= 22

Half-Ogre Fighter 9
HD: 2d8 + 9d10 ~= 58.5 + 11*Con
BAB: 10/5
STR: 18 + 6 race + 2 level = 26 (+8 bonus)
Melee: +17/+12
Greatsword: 3d6 + 12 ~= 22.5

Half-Ogre/Half-Dragon Fighter 6
HD: 2d8 + 6d10 ~= 42 + 8*Con
BAB: 7/2
STR: 18 + 6 race + 8 template + 2 level = 34 (+12 bonus)
Melee: +18/+13
Greatsword: 3d6 + 18 ~= 28.5



Half-Orc Fighter 17
HD: 17d10 ~= 93.5 + 17*Con
BAB: 17/12/7/2
STR: 18 + 2 race + 4 level = 24 (+7 bonus)
Melee: +24/+19/+14/+9
Greatsword: 2d6 + 10 ~= 17

Half-Orc/Half-Dragon Fighter 14
HD: 14d10 ~= 77 + 14*Con
BAB: 14/9/4
STR: 18 + 2 race + 8 template + 3 level = 31 (+10 bonus)
Melee: +24/+19/+14
Greatsword: 2d6 + 15 ~= 22

Half-Ogre Fighter 14
HD: 2d8 + 14d10 ~= 86 + 16*Con
BAB: 15/10/5
STR: 18 + 6 race + 4 level = 28 (+9 bonus)
Melee: +23/+18/+13
Greatsword: 3d6 + 13 ~= 23.5

Half-Ogre/Half-Dragon Fighter 11
HD: 2d8 + 11d10 ~= 69.5 + 13*Con
BAB: 12/7/2
STR: 18 + 6 race + 8 template + 3 level = 35 (+12 bonus)
Melee: +23/+18/+13
Greatsword: 3d6 + 18 ~= 28.5



Observations:
- First, I'm surprised by how balanced the melee attack bonuses are.
- Second, I'm surprised by how balanced the hit points are (assuming the same base con) at ECL 17. At low character levels the higher level adjustments hurt the hit points totals more significantly.


Points for discussion:
- How significant is the fourth attack?
- Are the characters 'balanced'?
- What am I not considering?


-Gak Toid

 

[Darklone]

Wings (Ex): At 9th level, a dragon disciple grows a set of draconic wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed, with average maneuverability.

Dragon Disciple does not have wings anymore???

 

[ruleslawyer]

Points for discussion:
- What am I not considering?

Reach. That's the one thing I'd say more than makes up for the 4th attack here, in the case of the half-ogre. Otherwise, I'd say these character concepts are pretty well-balanced; the half-dragon gets fewer attacks, but more damage per attack.

 

[GakToid]

Wings (Ex): At 9th level, a dragon disciple grows a set of draconic wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed, with average maneuverability.

Dragon Disciple does not have wings anymore???

DOH!
I assumed the class would be the same as the template (as it was in 3.0). I guess the saying about "assume" is true.

-Gak Toid

 

[Lamoni]

Points for discussion:
- How significant is the fourth attack?
- Are the characters 'balanced'?
- What am I not considering?

4th attack: It is quite situation dependant. With low AC opponents having a 4th attack is better since it allows you to spread out your damage more effectively.
Balanced: Yes, I would say they are quite balanced.
Not considering: Class abilities and skills. If you choose barbarian, you will be behind in barbarian abilities including damage reduction. Also it is harder to qualify for prestige classes since many require a minimum BAB. Skills aren't a big deal for fighters, but for most other classes being behind 4 levels of skill points can make it quite difficult to win any opposed checks.

I see nothing wrong with templates and encourage them for flavor. As long as the player is having fun, that is what is important. I myself usually prefer to just play a standard race though.

 

[Sejs]

You don't use your later iterative attacks for trying to hit an opponent with high ac. You use 'em for touch type maneuvers like trip or grapple. *nod*

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Curiously, when I statted up a 20th level fighter for the PsiWar/Fighter comparison thread, I found that, with a slight power attack or combat expertise, the 4th attack would still hit >=50% of the time against most foes of the same CR. It's worth more than a lot of people seem to think.

 

[Darklone]

Agreeing with EB. Some fighterbuilds reach to hit bonuses that are far beyond any MM AC.

 

[Gort]

Half-Ogre is a horrible race... so much stuff for so few penalties.

 

[Jon Potter]

Half-Ogre is a horrible race... so much stuff for so few penalties.

I disagree. The -2 hit to 3 stats is pretty tough to overcome. It's difficult to build a viable half-ogre who isn't a fighter "tank". Even then, lots of the cool manuevers that make a fighter more than just "I hit him again with my sword" (Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack, etc.) are very difficult to qualify for when you're taking penalties to Dex and Int.

This has been debated before, however. IMO, the half-ogre is pretty good in a very narrowly focused set of circumstances, but quickly falls by the wayside if you broaden your scope.

I have considered substituting the Goliath's Powerful Build (from Races of Stone) for the Half-ogre's Large size (thereby eliminating their 10' reach). If you go that route, I can't see anyone arguing that the Half-ogre is anything but a +1 LA.

Of course, I've been wrong before.