Summon Monster

[Infiniti2000]

Can a LG cleric summon a fiendish raven?

When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

Further, Summon Monster has the school/descriptor: "Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]." Does that mean it ALWAYS has a descriptor? The above quote leads me to believe that the descriptor only occurs based on the subtype of the creature, not on its alignment. A fiendish raven has no alignment subtype.

However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below.
...
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells
A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

This clearly points out that a LG cleric can summon a chaotic or evil creature as long as the spell descriptor is not chaotic or evil. So, does summoning a fiendish raven make the spell Evil and/or Chaotic?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

"Commonsense" would dictate it should not be possible for a LG Cleric to summon an evil creature. However, it "seems" fairly clear cut (is there an ambiguity I'm missing).

The Fiendish template says:
Fiendish creatures dwell on the lower planes, the realms of evil,...
In terms of alignment, they are always evil.

From your quote:
"When you use a summoning spell to summon an ...evil... creature, it is a spell of that type."
In the case of a Fiendish creature the Players Handbook states:
"For example, summon monster I is a lawful and evil spell when cast to summon a fiendish dire rat."

I cannot see why a Fiendish Raven would be any different. It would be an evil spell and thus beyond the Cleric's abilities/inclinations.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Merlion]

Yes it does. At the end it mentions how using a summoning spell to call a creature with a descriptor (it lists them all in alaphabetical order, including Evil) makes it a spell of that type.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, that depends. Is an "evil creature" one with the [Evil] subtype?

Or is it any creature with an evil alignment?

Answer carefully - hordes of paladins are waiting on your answer!

(In other words, when you read the Detect Evil spells, and it triggers based on an evil creature, do you limit that to creatures of the evil subtype?)

 

[Herremann the Wise]

(In other words, when you read the Detect Evil spells, and it triggers based on an evil creature, do you limit that to creatures of the evil subtype?)

No.
If I had detect evil up on a Fiendish creature, I'd expect them to light up like a christmas tree.
(I'm sure this means I'm falling into some dire rules trap here but I'll play the blind fool )

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No, there's no trap; that's the way I read it, too.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In the case of a Fiendish creature the Players Handbook states:
"For example, summon monster I is a lawful and evil spell when cast to summon a fiendish dire rat."

Yup. This example demonstrates that a fiendish rat (lawful evil alignment, with no [Lawful] or [Evil] subtype) is considered a 'lawful creature' and an 'evil creature' for purposes of determining the descriptor of a Summon Monster spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

However, I would always allow to swap the templates for their opposite when summoning monsters (i.e. fiendish for celestial). The summon monster lists are flooded with evil creatures, quite useless for the average PC cleric.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yup. This example demonstrates that a fiendish rat (lawful evil alignment, with no [Lawful] or [Evil] subtype) is considered a 'lawful creature' and an 'evil creature' for purposes of determining the descriptor of a Summon Monster spell.

-Hyp.

Unfortunately, that proof example does not exist in d20. Rassa-frassin', cotton-pickin' differences ...

The summon monster lists are flooded with evil creatures, quite useless for the average PC cleric.

Thus, my predicament.

 

[Li Shenron]

Can a LG cleric summon a fiendish raven?

No, and it's very clear from the SRD parts you quoted yourself. It only becomes unclear if you want it to

It may be unclear whether the restriction applies to spells due to another class, such as if the cleric is a Cleric/Wizard. In that case, I have used the following guidelines for a long time:
- Summon Monster cast as a Cleric will simply not summon creatures of opposed alignment (the deity grants the spell, so the Cleric cannot even attempt to summon something wrong)
- Summon Monster cast as a Wizard will allow the Cleric/Wizard to summon evil creatures, as the spells don't come from the deity; however the deity will very likely watch and punish him afterwards