Sunder as a Melee attack

[Gaius Agricola]

Here's a question, that really applies to both 3.0(somewhat) and 3.5.

Sunder, in it's rule description, is listed as (phb3.5 158):

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Now, this contradicts what the Table8-2:Actions in Combat, says on page 141 (phb3.5).

So, we've got a contradiction regarding whether Sunder is a Standard action (table) or a melee attack (rules text). Which takes precedence?

If the table overrides the rules text, does this also mean that Weapon Finesse requires the user of a finessable weapon to be proficient in said weapon in order to use his Dex bonus? The Proficiency is a requirement on the table in the Feat chapter, but not in the Feat rules text.

My personal thoughts (which I've discussed with Hypersmurf over on the WotC board): I believe that when rules text and tables collide, rules text take precedence.

Any thoughts?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I know you've heard from me already, but I'll add my thoughts here for the people in the audience

I've elected to Sunder.

Step A: I take the Sunder action. What sort of action is it? Table says: Standard action. No problem.
Step B: Okay, how do I do this? Sunder texts says: I can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon. Got my axe, no problem. Move on to step 1.
Step 1: Provoke AoO.
Step 2: Opposed attack rolls. What sort of attack roll? Well, Step B said it's a melee attack, so add all the normal melee attack modifiers.
Ste 3: Resolve Consequences.

When I take the Attack action (standard action), I can make one melee attack against an opponent (which can include Trip, Disarm, or Grapple).
When I take the Full Attack action (full round action), I can make potentially more than one melee attack against an opponent (which can include Trip, Disarm, or Grapple).
When I take the Sunder action (standard action), I can use a melee attack against an opponent's weapon or shield.

During the Full Attack action, I don't have the option of using a melee attack against an opponent's weapon or shield. During the Sunder action, I do.

The text and the table are not contradictory.

... as I read the rules.

-Hyp.

Edit - Regarding Weapon Finesse - I don't have access to the PHB at the moment, and the table doesn't appear in the SRD, so I'm afraid I can't comment.

 

[dcollins]

To me it does look like a potential contradiction. However, I would go with the table entry that it's a standard action, since that's the clearer, less ambiguous statement.

 

[Gaius Agricola]

I know you've heard from me already, but I'll add my thoughts here for the people in the audience

I've elected to Sunder.

Step A: I take the Sunder action. What sort of action is it? Table says: Standard action. No problem.
Step B: Okay, how do I do this? Sunder texts says: I can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon. Got my axe, no problem. Move on to step 1.
Step 1: Provoke AoO.
Step 2: Opposed attack rolls. What sort of attack roll? Well, Step B said it's a melee attack, so add all the normal melee attack modifiers.
Ste 3: Resolve Consequences.

When I take the Attack action (standard action), I can make one melee attack against an opponent (which can include Trip, Disarm, or Grapple).
When I take the Full Attack action (full round action), I can make potentially more than one melee attack against an opponent (which can include Trip, Disarm, or Grapple).
When I take the Sunder action (standard action), I can use a melee attack against an opponent's weapon or shield.

See, here's where I take exception. Nowhere in the description of Sunder is it listed as a Standard Action. Everything else that's not an attack action is described as what it is, be it a special full-round action(charge), melee attack (disarm, sunder, grapple, trip), or standard action (bull rush, overrun).

During the Full Attack action, I don't have the option of using a melee attack against an opponent's weapon or shield. During the Sunder action, I do.

The text and the table are not contradictory.

... as I read the rules.

-Hyp.

Edit - Regarding Weapon Finesse - I don't have access to the PHB at the moment, and the table doesn't appear in the SRD, so I'm afraid I can't comment.

Regarding Full attack actions, I implore you to show me where, in the rules text for the Sunder action, it refers to itself as anything but a melee attack (specifically not a standard action or full-round action).

The text is clearly contradictory to what the table says. The table says that Sunder(a weapon) is a Standard Action. The very first line of the Sunder Description clearly states that, exactly like Disarm, Trip or Grapple, Sunder is made as a melee attack. You can 'read' it anyway you want, I'm simply telling you what the rules say, verbatim.

Regarding the Weapon Finesse feat, the table entry in the PHB is thus:

(phb3.5 table 5-1: Feats, pages 90-91)
"Weapon Finesse (superscripts 1 and 2)
(Prerequisite Column: ) Proficiency with weapon, Base attack bonus +1
(Benefit Column: ) Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier on attack rolls with light melee weapons. "

(Superscript 1: ) "A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats."
(Superscript 2: ) "You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new weapon, skill, school of magic, or selection of spells."

Page 102 phb3.5
"Weapon Finesse [general]
You are especially skilled at using weapons that can benefit as much from Dexterity as from Strength.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Weapon finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38).
Natural weapons are always considered to be light weapons."

Thus, as I read Weapon finesse, and if I take your 'tables override text' view, then to take Weapon Finesse with a Single Weapon (not all of them in the description), I must have a BAB of +1 or higher, and be proficient in the specific weapon I wish to use with the Weapon Finesse feat. And, if I wish to use more than one weapon finessed, I must spend a feat for each one.

 

[Gaius Agricola]

To me it does look like a potential contradiction. However, I would go with the table entry that it's a standard action, since that's the clearer, less ambiguous statement.

Great, then you agree that Weapon finesse must be bought per weapon, and you must be proficient in each weapon, before you buy it? Because the table clearly says so.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

All attacks are listed as Standard Actions on that table (Hmm - but not Full Attack).

EDIT: Ah, on second look, I see the issue. It does indeed seem that you can't do a Sunder as part of a Full-Round Attack, since Sunder is a standard action (Attack), as clearly defined on page 141. However Sunder is clearly a Melee attack AND a Standard action. This would preclude multiple Sunder attempts in one round, which is probably a good thing.

As for Weapon Finesse - Weapon Finesse applies to all possible finessable weapons, not one single weapon. My guess is the table is a copy-paste error from 3.0.

I don't necessarily think that Text supersedes Tables - it's a case by case thing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Regarding Full attack actions, I implore you to show me where, in the rules text for the Sunder action, it refers to itself as anything but a melee attack (specifically not a standard action or full-round action).

Whereas I'm saying that the text of how Sunder works only applies when you're taking the Sunder action.

If you are taking the Sunder action, then you can use a melee attack to strike a weapon. And the Sunder action is a standard action.

If you are taking the Disarm action, then as a melee attack you can attempt to Disarm your opponent. And the Disarm action can substitute for a melee attack in the Attack Action, an AoO, the Charge Action, or one or more times in a Full Attack Action.

You can only use a melee attack to strike a weapon if you are using the Sunder standard action, not otherwise.

And as I've said before, it doesn't need to state "standard action" in the text, because that is made quite clear on the table.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

EDIT: Ah, on second look, I see the issue. It does indeed

It does indeed... what? Finish your sentences!
-Hyp.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

It does indeed... what? Finish your sentences!
-Hyp.

You caught me in mid-reply! I posted my incomplete edit, wanting to ensure that no one saw my previous, grievously wrong statement... It's all there now!

 

[Darklone]

I'm with Hypersmurf here. The text in the Sunder description IMHO was only written that way to clarify that it's a melee attack, no ranged attack.