Sword and Board...of DEATH!

[Lord Pendragon]

Okay, so I'm considering the future of a 5th-level sword-and-board paladin I'm playing atm. He's got Power Attack, Mounted Combat, and Divine Might so far, and I plan on picking up Divine Shield and (probably) Ride-By Attack at 6 and 9.

But I've been wondering where to go after that. I'm not sure I'll be able to use my mount often enough to go through the full Mounted Combat chain. I'd also like to do something to ramp up damage in the long run.

So I've been thinking of perhaps working towards a TWF combo, using a longsword and bashing with a shield in the off-hand. I've a few questions about the style for those who've tried it, or seen it in action.

1. How many feats are necessary to make this style relatively effective? I'm thinking TWF and Improved Shield Bash as a base, and maybe ITWF later if feats permit.

2. How are shields classified as far as light or 1-handed weapons? I think a heavy shield would be a 1-handed weapon, and a light shield would be a light weapon for purposes of TWF. Am I correct? If so, is there a way to "lighten" a heavy shield for TWF/bashing purposes?

3. I intend to prioritize cha boosting ahead of str, though at 8th-level I'll have an 18 strength and charisma before magic items. I'm thinking that Divine Might, which adds it's bonus to each attack, makes extra attacks more advantageous. Plus the extra 1/2 strength isn't even lost compared to a two-handed weapon, as it's added to the off-hand attack. Have I got this correct?

4. Re-reading the Divine Shield text, it seems that the 3.5 feat no longer adds its bonus to a shield's attack roll. Am I correct here?

Any TWF/sword-and-board/shield bashing thoughts welcome.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Okay, so I'm considering the future of a 5th-level sword-and-board paladin I'm playing atm. He's got Power Attack, Mounted Combat, and Divine Might so far, and I plan on picking up Divine Shield and (probably) Ride-By Attack at 6 and 9.

But I've been wondering where to go after that. I'm not sure I'll be able to use my mount often enough to go through the full Mounted Combat chain. I'd also like to do something to ramp up damage in the long run.

So I've been thinking of perhaps working towards a TWF combo, using a longsword and bashing with a shield in the off-hand. I've a few questions about the style for those who've tried it, or seen it in action.

1. How many feats are necessary to make this style relatively effective? I'm thinking TWF and Improved Shield Bash as a base, and maybe ITWF later if feats permit.

2. How are shields classified as far as light or 1-handed weapons? I think a heavy shield would be a 1-handed weapon, and a light shield would be a light weapon for purposes of TWF. Am I correct? If so, is there a way to "lighten" a heavy shield for TWF/bashing purposes?

3. I intend to prioritize cha boosting ahead of str, though at 8th-level I'll have an 18 strength and charisma before magic items. I'm thinking that Divine Might, which adds it's bonus to each attack, makes extra attacks more advantageous. Plus the extra 1/2 strength isn't even lost compared to a two-handed weapon, as it's added to the off-hand attack. Have I got this correct?

4. Re-reading the Divine Shield text, it seems that the 3.5 feat no longer adds its bonus to a shield's attack roll. Am I correct here?

Any TWF/sword-and-board/shield bashing thoughts welcome.

1- TWF and Imp Shield bash are pretty much the basic setup necessary, Imp shield charge is great fun (especially with some beefy Str and possible an enlarged user), but works only on charges. Imp Shield Slam is pretty nice , but may just be a bit useless at the level you will be able to acquire it without multiclassing - which would assuming you start at level 12 be the 21st level ?

2- Your assumptions concerning shields and sizes are correct - check the descriptions of shield in the PHB. Heavy shields are rather disadvantegous with this style, as they result in a -4 to both attacks (not being a light weapon) in comparison to -2 with a medium shield.

3 - As the shield is wielded as an off-hand weapon, you can only apply half your normal Str Bonus to any damage dealt with it, sorry. Divine Might does apply fully, though.

4 - Despite the inital flavour text, only the _shield_ bonus to AC is boosted. As the shield bonus is a purely defensive bonus under 3.5 (one of the major oversights and bungles on part of WotC, but I disgress ), its offensive capability (if any) remains unaffected by Divine Shield.

Finally - To be honest, while I very much like the sword and board TWF combo with Divine Might in the background (and it can be very effective in mid-level play), I sincerly doubt a single class Paladin will find it to be the best possible build. You will get its full benefits only by level 15, Imp.Shield charge only by 18th level if you follow your initial setup. If you are the primary tank of your group, your damage output will be sub-par until then, and you might face severe difficulties to batter down opposition with unpenetrated DR through the sheer power of your blows alone. YMMV

 

[Darklone]

If you want to use a heavy shield, get a shortsword or other light weapon as main weapon. I'd rather take a light shield though and keep a potion or something else handy in the left hand...

You must have really good attributes... TWF prerequisites Dex 15, upgrades Dex 17+.

Prepare Divine Favor if you have the time. Hitting and extra damage to all attacks help a lot with TWF.

Since you are going for AC... think about Combat Expertise.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

If I were you I might consider ditching the mounted combat feat chain all together and just pick up, power attack (1st), divine might (1st), TWF (3rd), Improved Shield Bash (6th) and divine shield (9th).

And then start working on other stuff, possibly mounted combat feat chain, maybe ITWF, maybe two weapon defense etc.

Other wise it's going to take forever for you to be uber as others have stated.

 

[Thanee]

With Power Attack and Divine Might the TWF attacks should be fairly attractive already, so going for TWF/Improved Shield Bash sounds like a good idea. ITWF is also good, the attack at -5 is still quite decent.

Since Divine Might needs to be activated each round now, I wouldn't go too heavy on other divine feats, it just takes away from the one you already have.

And yep, drop the mounted stuff altogether, or at least delay it until later.

Bye
Thanee

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

With Power Attack and Divine Might the TWF attacks should be fairly attractive already, so going for TWF/Improved Shield Bash sounds like a good idea. ITWF is also good, the attack at -5 is still quite decent.

Since Divine Might needs to be activated each round now, I wouldn't go too heavy on other divine feats, it just takes away from the one you already have.

And yep, drop the mounted stuff altogether, or at least delay it until later.

Bye
Thanee

If you need an AC boost while using the TWF-combo, you might consider picking Two-weapon Defense, too. Adds another point of shield bonus if you with with two weapon fighting and a weapon in your off-hand. As you are using your shield offensively, IMHO the shield bonus would apply.

As for your feat selection. Delay "Divine Shield" until after you have Imp shield bash and TWF at least. And leave the 'Mounted Combat' feat/path alone, unless you are certain that you will actually use it (especially use it anytime soon ).
You might want to consider applying with your GM to multi-class the Paladin (without loosing the benefits ) to a fighter for a few levels. Several FR-Knightly orders and chruches permit this. Also, in the Eberron Setting rules, there is a feat, which specifically allows to do that - called "knightly training". A few levels of fighter will get you several of the desired feats much faster .
Personally, I always found the general and universal paladinish prohibition to multiclass rather silly - I mean, who's deity is going to complain, if the paladin decides to become a full-time cleric or aspires to be a better fighter to serve his chosen deity all the better. Especially as long as he keeps observing his vows (if any), acts in his order's interest and fulfill any religious duties and trials ? But that is well into house-rule territory, I admit.

 

[Darklone]

Uzagi: The shield bonus of TWD does not stack with a shield bonus of a worn shield. And feats are rare for a paladin.

Multiclassing with fighter is always a good idea for paladins... if the DM allows it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A straight Paladin does not have the feats to go for both mounted attack and TWF, IMO. Just pick one.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You must have really good attributes... TWF prerequisites Dex 15, upgrades Dex 17+.

Gah. I completely forgot about the Dex requirement to TWF. I have a Dex 13 atm, though I'm sure I could get some gloves before 9th-level. And that rules ITWF right out.

Multiclassing with fighter is always a good idea for paladins... if the DM allows it.

I am thinking about asking my DM about this. A couple levels of fighter would make the TWF bit a lot more doable.

Finally - To be honest, while I very much like the sword and board TWF combo with Divine Might in the background (and it can be very effective in mid-level play), I sincerly doubt a single class Paladin will find it to be the best possible build. You will get its full benefits only by level 15, Imp.Shield charge only by 18th level if you follow your initial setup. If you are the primary tank of your group, your damage output will be sub-par until then, and you might face severe difficulties to batter down opposition with unpenetrated DR through the sheer power of your blows alone. YMMV

Reading over the excellent comments in this thread, I think I agree with you.

Hrm. It looks like my best bet is probably what I had started with. longsword + heavy shield, loose the shield and wield the longsword 2-handed when needing serious offense. Or animate the shield and wield a greatsword, though style-wise that doesn't appeal to me...

 

[argo]

1. How many feats are necessary to make this style relatively effective? I'm thinking TWF and Improved Shield Bash as a base, and maybe ITWF later if feats permit.

Actually, depending on how you see your fighting style you may be able to get by with only TWF. When facing a single big bad you don't TWF and instead put the -2 into PA or fight defensevly (hit harder or last longer), maybe throw a smite in for good measure. Against mooks you TWF for the extra attack (with divine might can mean a lot of extra damage). Yes you loose your entire shield bonus to AC but they are mooks who shouldn't be able to hit you anyway so you don't care. This can make you a very versatile character for the cost of only one feat.

2. How are shields classified as far as light or 1-handed weapons? I think a heavy shield would be a 1-handed weapon, and a light shield would be a light weapon for purposes of TWF. Am I correct? If so, is there a way to "lighten" a heavy shield for TWF/bashing purposes?

You got it right. If you want to shield bash you want to use a light spiked shield and get the spikes enhanced. Though with your divine might running you should be less woried about base damage dice.

3. I intend to prioritize cha boosting ahead of str, though at 8th-level I'll have an 18 strength and charisma before magic items. I'm thinking that Divine Might, which adds it's bonus to each attack, makes extra attacks more advantageous. Plus the extra 1/2 strength isn't even lost compared to a two-handed weapon, as it's added to the off-hand attack. Have I got this correct?

Yes, Str damage on the main hand and 1/2 Str on the off hand and DM at full for both. Speaking of versatility remember, if you ever absoutly positively have to drop a guy in just one hit you can drop your shield, take your longsword in two hands, charge, PA, smite and DM for some major damage.

Sword 'n Board = versatility


I have also seen some major smite + Shield Charge smakdowns in the past although I don't know how they would translate into 3.5 Besides, IIRC they were prety feat intensive smacks and you are starting late so you might not want to bother too much with them.

Hope that helps.