D&D 5E Tasha's Mind Sliver and Shadow Sorcerer. The most efficient spellcaster?

[Hohige]

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The shadow sorcerer was already known to have enormous destructive power.
Twin Polymorph + The Hound of Ill Omem is insanely powerful. It's literally 100 (2 Giant Ape + The Sorcerer's Hound) damage per turn, applies disadvantage to saving throws and can still Knock the enemy prone.
The Hound as bonus action + Careful Fear is a deadly sentense.


Now,
Mind Sliver cantrip + Quicken Hypnotic patter / Fear / Hold Person can be extremely devastating.
Applying disadvantage against all saving throw and -1d4 on saving throw (Mind Sliver).

Is It currently the most efficient caster?

 

[Mistwell]

Walk me through this. Beginning with "Twin Polymorph". What are the targets of your polymorphs? I know you turn something into giant apes, but what's the something you're turning into said apes?

 

[Hohige]

Walk me through this. Beginning with "Twin Polymorph". What are the targets of your polymorphs? I know you turn something into giant apes, but what's the something you're turning into said apes?

Two allies that gains 150 THP and average 50 damage per turn.

 

[Weiley31]

Walk me through this. Beginning with "Twin Polymorph". What are the targets of your polymorphs? I know you turn something into giant apes, but what's the something you're turning into said apes?

Apparently Sorcerers twin allies into DBZ Great Apes.

 

[Mistwell]

Two allies that gains 150 THP and average 50 damage per turn.

OK but that's not a good use of the spell unless those allies were already nearly down due to loss of hit points. The allies should be more effective as whatever class they normally are, and that's THEIR damage they do as an ape, which is likely lower than the damage they'd normally do. I mean, I like Polymorph, but you don't count damage your allies do because you polymorphed them unless they were going to do less damage without the polymorph spell.

Now, if you had polymorphed some sort of summoned creatures or pets under your control, then I'd be more interested in that aspect. But just "I turn my fellow players into Apes" will likely get you smacked by your fellow players unless they're in trouble.

It's particularly rare to find TWO allies who are in need of rescue with a polymorph spell. My wizard has Polymorph and it's probably needed once every two full sessions (8 hours of real time). It's never been needed/wanted twice simultaneously, again unless you pair this with some sort of pet or summoned creature under your control and not another PC.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Now, if you had polymorphed some sort of summoned creatures or pets under your control, then I'd be more interested in that aspect. But just "I turn my fellow players into Apes" will likely get you smacked by your fellow players unless they're in trouble.

1/2 HD NPC henchmen.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Back on the original topic, mind sliver plus a quickened spell does seem like a good combo. I'd have to see it it play to judge if it's OP though.

 

[Mistwell]

Back on the original topic, mind sliver plus a quickened spell does seem like a good combo. I'd have to see it it play to judge if it's OP though.

He's right that Mind Sliver plus the Hound giving disadvantage to saves is a good combo with a save-or-suck spell. Of course you need to get past the save on Mind Sliver.

 

[BacchusNL]

A Bard with an Instrument of the Bards (including the uncommon versions) already has enemies rolling with disadvantage vs charm effects, including Hypnotic Pattern, for years. I don't see much fuss about that either.

Clockwork Soul esspecialy, but Divine Soul and Aberant Mind aswell, still seems a ton better then Shadow imo.

 

[Hohige]

Clockwork Soul esspecialy, but Divine Soul and Aberant Mind aswell, still seems a ton better then Shadow imo.

Careful Fear / Careful Hypotic Pattern / Hold Person + The Hound of Ill Omem as bonus action is competitive...It's really competitive and avoid friendly fire.

 

[Hohige]

He's right that Mind Sliver plus the Hound giving disadvantage to saves is a good combo with a save-or-suck spell. Of course you need to get past the save on Mind Sliver.

The hound also gives disadvantage against Mind Sliver.

 

[jgsugden]

There are a lot of effective combos in the game. However, the game works best when PCs are not optimized, but are efficient. If you're trying to break the game, you'll make it less fun for the group. Plus, when you optimize, the DM tends to escalate the monsters, and that results in the inevitable series of bad rolls by PCs resulting in a TPK.

All that being said: Heightened Spell has been there to give disadvantage for a long time, and we've had Bane to give them that -d4. Not a new issue, here.

 

[humble minion]

All that being said: Heightened Spell has been there to give disadvantage for a long time, and we've had Bane to give them that -d4. Not a new issue, here.

And the Circle of Stars druid can apply another -1d6 via Woe, and the Eloquence bard can stack another bardic inspiration die worth of penalty on top of that.

There's a fair few ways to make saves harder for your opponents now.

But as you say, optimisation is very far from my cup of tea as a playstyle.

 

[Hohige]

All that being said: Heightened Spell has been there to give disadvantage for a long time, and we've had Bane to give them that -d4. Not a new issue, here.

The Hound is a improved Heightened Spell that isn't a metamagic, you can apply metamagic once. It works all spells, damages the enemy, can knock prone him and apply disadvantage for every spell casted. You can also cast multiple hounds for still more damage.
So, the Shadow Sorcerer can cast Mind Sliver and Quicken a save or suck spells. All spells is with disadvantage + Hound's damage.
Bane is a concentration spell, the best save or suck spells are concentration spell and you can't cast two leveled spells per turn. Bane or Hypnotc Pattern/Fear but not both. Mind Sliver + Save or Suck spells stacks.
Metamagic + The Hound stacks.
A good stack is Careful Fear/Hypnotic Pattern + Hound's disadvantage.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

It's a strong combo, but at the end of the day you are burning all your actions on a d6 cantrip, and then burning your Sorcery points, also depleted by the Hound of Ill Omen, to cast the spells you actually want to cast. At high levels you can do that a lot. When the strategy first comes on line your resources for it are pretty damned limited so I think there's a lot of levels in there where you'd get more saving throw debuffing mileage out of a Lore Bard's Cutting Words, being as they are short rest resource that only needs to be spent after the die is rolled (what exactly that means is going to depend on the DM) when they are likely to make the difference. Resources that only need to be spent when they are likely or certain to make a difference can last a lot longer than those that need to be spent in advance.

But Mind Sliver is a pretty powerful cantrip in anyone's hands, because the monster manual was not written with frequent intelligence saves in mind, and it' often predictable when an enemy is going to be bad at them. I anticipate it being a mainstay of optimizing Sorcerers, Wizards, Warlocks, Eldritch Knights, and Magic Initiate takers from here on out.

 

[Hohige]

It's a strong combo, but at the end of the day you are burning all your actions on a d6 cantrip, and then burning your Sorcery points, also depleted by the Hound of Ill Omen, to cast the spells you actually want to cast. At high levels you can do that a lot. When the strategy first comes on line your resources for it are pretty damned limited so I think there's a lot of levels in there where you'd get more saving throw debuffing mileage out of a Lore Bard's Cutting Words, being as they are short rest resource that only needs to be spent after the die is rolled (what exactly that means is going to depend on the DM) when they are likely to make the difference. Resources that only need to be spent when they are likely or certain to make a difference can last a lot longer than those that need to be spent in advance.

But Mind Sliver is a pretty powerful cantrip in anyone's hands, because the monster manual was not written with frequent intelligence saves in mind, and it' often predictable when an enemy is going to be bad at them. I anticipate it being a mainstay of optimizing Sorcerers, Wizards, Warlocks, Eldritch Knights, and Magic Initiate takers from here on out.

Its an amazing cantrips for sorcerers. Tiver S for sorcerers with Quicken spell. Tiver C for others.
Because its -1d4 (1 round duration)
Mind Silver + Quicken spell Works well. Without Quicken spell Its situational.

 

[jgsugden]

The Hound is a improved Heightened Spell that isn't a metamagic, you can apply metamagic once. It works all spells, damages the enemy, can knock prone him and apply disadvantage for every spell casted. You can also cast multiple hounds for still more damage.
So, the Shadow Sorcerer can cast Mind Sliver and Quicken a save or suck spells. All spells is with disadvantage + Hound's damage.
Bane is a concentration spell, the best save or suck spells are concentration spell and you can't cast two leveled spells per turn. Bane or Hypnotc Pattern/Fear but not both. Mind Sliver + Save or Suck spells stacks.
Metamagic + The Hound stacks.
A good stack is Careful Fear/Hypnotic Pattern + Hound's disadvantage.

Let's talk this through. Shadow sorcerer decides to take on a foe within 120'. They use the first round to (Bonus) Hound, and cast a spell with a metamagic applied. Then, on the second round, they can mind-sliver and then cast another spell quickened spell with a very high chance of success.

7th level Shadow Sorcerer with an 18 Charisma (spell DC - 8 + 3 + 4 = 15).

Round one: They use the bonus (3 spells points) and cast a save or suck spell (hold person, hypnotic pattern, whatever). If they fail, the combat is essentially over. If they succeed, then we go to round two.

Compare that to a sorcerer that cast that same spell heightened - They did not use up their bonus action and the enemy is in essentially the same position if they fail the save.

Round one point five: Hound gets to attack somewhere in here for 10 damage or 17 if they are held (but you'd end the hypnotic pattern effect if you attack). If the enemy made their save, they get to do something, perhaps eliminating the hound (40 to 50 damage required, or a spell effect that otherwise negates it).

Round two: Assuming your foe made that save, you get to mind sliver (potentially your foe gets disadvantage) and then quicken (2 spell points) a save or suck spell. If they failed the save against mind sliver, this is going to be at disadvantage with a -d4 to the roll. Highly likely they'll fail. Let's say they have a +4. They have about a 10% chance to make that roll! Unless, of course, the hound was destroyed, in which cse you're not getting advantage on either roll.

Compare that to the Heightened spell caster coming back and doing that save or suck spell - There is a roughly 20% chance of them making that roll. So one time in ten you'll get a different outcome.

Shadow sorcerer is solid, but it isn't earth shattering. If I were going to rank the power level of the sorcerer subclasses, it would not be my first pick. Aberrant Mind - gets that nod right now.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Its an amazing cantrips for sorcerers. Tiver S for sorcerers with Quicken spell. Tiver C for others.
Because its -1d4 (1 round duration)
Mind Silver + Quicken spell Works well. Without Quicken spell Its situational.

Only if you're overly fixated on personal glory and finding the perfect one turn killer combo. The debuff goes until end of the caster's next turn, so personal glory is not out of the cards without Quicken. But there is also the distinct possibility that someone else on the team in this team game has a good spell or ability to throw at the enemy which will involve a saving throw. There are also all the times when the enemy is forced to make ongoing saving throws from a spell or effect that has already landed. And, once again, just as a matter of the MM being full of enemies with low or negative bonuses on intelligence saves it is worth taking, it's probably going to be my second or third damage cantrip pick up for every build that qualifies until I get bored to death of it.

 

[Hohige]

Let's talk this through. Shadow sorcerer decides to take on a foe within 120'. They use the first round to (Bonus) Hound, and cast a spell with a metamagic applied. Then, on the second round, they can mind-sliver and then cast another spell quickened spell with a very high chance of success.

7th level Shadow Sorcerer with an 18 Charisma (spell DC - 8 + 3 + 4 = 15).

Round one: They use the bonus (3 spells points) and cast a save or suck spell (hold person, hypnotic pattern, whatever). If they fail, the combat is essentially over. If they succeed, then we go to round two.

Compare that to a sorcerer that cast that same spell heightened - They did not use up their bonus action and the enemy is in essentially the same position if they fail the save.

Round one point five: Hound gets to attack somewhere in here for 10 damage or 17 if they are held (but you'd end the hypnotic pattern effect if you attack). If the enemy made their save, they get to do something, perhaps eliminating the hound (40 to 50 damage required, or a spell effect that otherwise negates it).

Round two: Assuming your foe made that save, you get to mind sliver (potentially your foe gets disadvantage) and then quicken (2 spell points) a save or suck spell. If they failed the save against mind sliver, this is going to be at disadvantage with a -d4 to the roll. Highly likely they'll fail. Let's say they have a +4. They have about a 10% chance to make that roll! Unless, of course, the hound was destroyed, in which cse you're not getting advantage on either roll.

Compare that to the Heightened spell caster coming back and doing that save or suck spell - There is a roughly 20% chance of them making that roll. So one time in ten you'll get a different outcome.

Shadow sorcerer is solid, but it isn't earth shattering. If I were going to rank the power level of the sorcerer subclasses, it would not be my first pick. Aberrant Mind - gets that nod right now.

Well. Remember Careful Fear/Hypnotic Pattern + The Hound can save your entire party against a horde of Enemies without harming your party. You can literally do It in every situation.
Heightein works once, The Hound against every spell for 5 minute, It also damages and knock prone.
Its insanely better that Heightein spell.
It also open a slot for another metamagic option instead Heightein spell.

I agreed about Aberrant Mind. Its Tier S. But Shadow Sorcerer remains competitive.

 

[Mistwell]

And the Circle of Stars druid can apply another -1d6 via Woe, and the Eloquence bard can stack another bardic inspiration die worth of penalty on top of that.

There's a fair few ways to make saves harder for your opponents now.

But as you say, optimisation is very far from my cup of tea as a playstyle.

Interesting. So Bard 3 (Eloquence) Sorcerer 6 (Shadow) with the Mind Sliver cantrip can really lock down those saving throws. And we now have uncommon magic items which can increase spell DCs too from Tasha's. I can see a very nasty lockdown Bard/Sorc, with good out of combat abilities as well and a smoking high Charisma.