The Dark Sun Weapon Breakage Rule - How do you feel about it?

[Dice4Hire]

Overall, I am not a fan of this rule. I would probably do something more like

When you roll maximum damage on a weapon attack roll, your weapon breaks unless you choose to deal minimum damage to the enemy. For metal weapons, they get a save vs breakage with a +3 modifier and an additional +1 for each +1 of magical power.

Yeah, not rules text, but you get the idea.

So will come up more for many weapons, but will not be as great an effect, as a longsword will do 7 less damage per W in the power.

I do not like the way it is being done now, at all.

 

[Aegeri]

I think this is a good and excellently considered mechanic. Any random factor that basically exists only to punish players isn't very good in my book. As PCs need to face far more encounters than any creature the chance of any random weapon breakage affecting them is basically 100%. Given how often players roll natural 1s in my current games, they would need a backpack full of weapons to avoid being permanently screwed (hard to use weapon powers without a weapon in 4E).

So I like the idea that it's a choice, because you never know when you might want it or need it. It does give an advantage - albeit still a risky one - to metal weapons as well. I see it being used quite a lot, because there is little worse than missing with an important encounter or daily power and doing essentially nothing. It also avoids the pitfall of being a random mechanic that just arbitrarily punishes players.

Yeah, not rules text, but you get the idea.

That is an absolutely terrible rule on so many levels. For one it completely bones high [W] powers, weapons with the brutal property are basically counter-intuitively made less effective and I'm not sure how that interacts with a monks unarmed strike. Not to mention it makes lower dice weapons increasingly useless, like daggers who have a 50% chance of basically doing 1 damage (as they will do 1 damage on a 1 or a 4). So basically everyone will take a d8 or higher sized weapon, because you've made everything that rolls a d4 or d6 next to worthless.

 

[FireLance]

Frankly, I'm not sure whether I would bother with it in my games, but that's because I'm not a fan of weapon breakage in general. It also seems slightly counter-intuitive to me: you only get to re-roll your attack roll if you roll a natural 1?

If I were to have a weapon breakage rule in my game, it would probably be more along the lines of: before your roll the attack roll, you may decide to gain a +1 bonus to the roll, but your weapon breaks if you roll a natural 1.

It is thus in the player's hands whether and when he wants to use his weapon conservatively and safely or adopt a more aggressive and risky style that has the chance to break his weapon.

Just to maintain parity, the same approach could also apply to implements, which get "overloaded" and unuseable thereafter on a natural 1.

 

[Whimsical]

Here's the text of the rule:

Weapons of Inferior Materials
Nonmetal weapons break more easily than metal ones. A broken item is at best an improvised weapon. Damaged magic weapons lose their enhancement, properties, and powers until repaired. The following option simulates the relative fragility of nonmetal weapons, making combat more unpredictable and exciting.

Reckless Breakage: When a player rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll, his character's weapon has a chance to break. He can accept the result, automatically missing the attack as usual, and keep his weapon intact. Alternatively, the player can reroll. Regardless of the reroll result, a nonmetal weapon breaks once the attack is complete. A metal weapon, however, breaks only if the player rolls a natural 5 or lower on the reroll. This rule gives him a say in whether his weapon breaks. He can play it safe and accept the errant attack, or he can risk his weapon to try to avoid a miss.

Just so that everyone is on the same page.

And I like it. It rewards the player for portraying a theme of the campaign setting with his character's action.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

So far, no one in my D&D Encounters group has used this rule, but our characters didn't start with backup weapons, and we haven't found any either. Once we do have backups, I think the ability to reroll will become quite valuable. I mean, are you really going to tell me that if you roll a natural 1 on your daily, or even an encounter power at a turning point in the battle, you aren't going to take the reroll if you have a comparable spare weapon?

The rule is simple and straightforward. It'll come up as often as critical hits do. I like it, for the most part. The only dissonance I feel is that rolling a 1 is better than rolling a 2, but I'll get over it.

 

[hvg3akaek]

Not really sure I like it - an automatic penalty for a possible benefit just doesn't feel good. Loosing yoru weapon *and* missing is too much of a penalty, and doesn't feel fun.

My idea would to be make it more like: with a natural 1, you can reroll, but if you miss, your weapon breaks. (this gives a chance to break, weighed out with a chance to hit)

Or: with a natural 1, you can choose to instead automatically hit, but your weapon breaks. (this gives the definite benefit of breaking your weapon, but the definite benefit of hitting).


Of course, both can be abused - the first by making sure that you rarely ever miss (a rogue in one of my games often only misses on a natural 1...); the second by carrying many cheap weapons, with which you can break and get auto-hits on 1's. I'd have to play each and see how the characters reacted. (possibly giving the choice of both of the above?)


Ultimately, I see the evenness of risk/reward as being more fun than a definite penalty for a possible benefit.

 

[Dice4Hire]

That is an absolutely terrible rule on so many levels. For one it completely bones high [W] powers, weapons with the brutal property are basically counter-intuitively made less effective and I'm not sure how that interacts with a monks unarmed strike. Not to mention it makes lower dice weapons increasingly useless, like daggers who have a 50% chance of basically doing 1 damage (as they will do 1 damage on a 1 or a 4). So basically everyone will take a d8 or higher sized weapon, because you've made everything that rolls a d4 or d6 next to worthless.

That is wrong. (following your tone) Higher W powers would casue LESS breakage, unless you think that 2d4 will roll maximum damage the same amount as 1d4. Well, let's look at the dagger example and assume 1W. One one hand, yes, it is 50% chance to do 1 point, or in other words a 25% chance to lose 2 points of damage. On the other extreme, the E Axe would have a 12% or so (because of brutal) chance to lose 11 points of damage. A d10 weapon, would be a 10% chance to lose 9 points of damage.

And as levels improve, and high W powers become more prevelent, the chances of breaking will drop. One you hit epic, and even at-wills go up, it should rarely be a problem.

I am sure someone can come by and do the total math layout.

And BTW, do you seriously think Monk Unarmred strikes are going to be under weapon breakage rules?

Obviously, this rule is still in the thought stages.

 

[Dice4Hire]

straightforward. It'll come up as often as critical hits do. I like it, for the most part. The only dissonance I feel is that rolling a 1 is better than rolling a 2, but I'll get over it.

Yes, I find that kind of hard to figure out also. In addition, this rule will give those must-have dailies a better chance of working, which can be both good and bad.

Good because it is fun to hit with major dailies.

Bad because this will encourage the christmas tree effect quite a bit as characters will be encouraged to carry a couple of hte same weapon, in addition to secondary weapoons to cover their bases. It is possible that in a game with inherent bonuses being more common, this might notbe a real problem.

_I do wonder whatthe game will say about higher levels, like magic and such.

Do the encounters thus far hand out any magic, specifically of a permenant type?

 

[Aegeri]

That is wrong. (following your tone) Higher W powers would casue LESS breakage, unless you think that 2d4 will roll maximum damage the same amount as 1d4.

Okay, that makes things slightly less terrible but still awful. The reason I assumed it worked per actual die and not maximum damage for a power was because you wanted it to come up more often and not less. Yet rolling multiple [W] with a high die weapons means it will be rarer than the normal 5% in many cases. In addition to this its far more punishing on anyone with a small die size essentially, even at 2[W].

Well, let's look at the dagger example and assume 1W. One one hand, yes, it is 50% chance to do 1 point, or in other words a 25% chance to lose 2 points of damage.

Which is an incredible amount of punishment for 21 levels of a campaign, basically making at-wills and 1[W] powers for any d4/d6 weapon utterly worthless.

On the other extreme, the E Axe would have a 12% or so (because of brutal) chance to lose 11 points of damage. A d10 weapon, would be a 10% chance to lose 9 points of damage.

Basically saying "Use a d8 weapon and higher or don't bother". At least until epic tier when you hit level 21.

And as levels improve, and high W powers become more prevelent, the chances of breaking will drop.

Actually given the corrected interpretation your rule basically sadistically punishes anyone with a low die weapon, while being basically incredibly rare (rarer than the current rule) with multiple dice above anything above a d8 or so. So if your goal was to make it more common it's basically only going to make using at-wills and basic attacks a terrible idea up until level 21 (that could be your intention of course). Then cease to be basically relevant after that if you have a big enough weapon die.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

If I were to have a weapon breakage rule in my game, it would probably be more along the lines of: before your roll the attack roll, you may decide to gain a +1 bonus to the roll, but your weapon breaks if you roll a natural 1.

I like this, but I think I would try it this way: all non-metal weapons have -1 penalty attack rolls and -1 penalty to each die for damage rolls. Before you roll the attack roll OR before you roll the damage roll you can choose to negate the penalty. Weapon breaks on natural 1 attack roll or minimum damage on damage roll.

Or something. Not sure yet. Regardless, I would not apply it to implements. It's more about flavor than game balance.