D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[Imaro]

Yes, a D&D /Community/ thing. And as D&D goes, so goes the hobby, for the most part.

Not really there are quite a few games that have been created specifically to be "not D&D" but whatevs...

But, it's not a fantasy-genre or myth/legend thing. Heroes in genre (not even limited to the fantasy genre, action heroes in general do crazy stuff as a matter of course, even in settings where the supernatural is not on the table) go well beyond the pedantic dictates of the community's double-standard.

So do D&D fighters...by mid-level a D&D fighter can do most things well within the range of the average action hero... even the average sword and sorcery (without magic) hero... Or are you claiming they can't? If so I'd be open to hearing some examples...

"Reality-bending" doesn't sound meaningfully different from 'magical' - it'd still be supernatural in some way, just with the hand doing the waving not holding a wand. Psionics, for instance, nominally 'not magical' but still supernatural - and, magical enough to slide on the double-standard in question. Like magic, psionics can do basically anything in D&D.

I don't think psionics slides on any double standard... it's very clearly in the realm of mystical, reality bending pseudo power... in other words magic by another name, which it's even been treated as in some editions of D&D.

Here, you are clearly illustrating the double-standard. You cannot even bring yourself to articulate the concept a fighter not fettered by genre-inappropriate enforcement of 'realism.' You default to anything along those lines necessarily being 'magic.'

What genre are you even talking about... it can't be the genre of D&D because well that's whatever D&D is at the moment... the biggest influences of the creators were swords and sorcery... so is that the genre we are speaking to? Fantasy in general?

Of course, no one will be able to give you an example of a non-magical fighter performing magical feats non-magically, because you you're asking for a paradox. Not anymore than an Omnipotent God can create a stone He can't lift.

I asked for an example of a game that allows a fighter to do these types of feats and doesn't define them as magical, psionic, whatever in nature as opposed to just naturally occuring in a fighter... Not sure what this paragraph was addressing...

To facilitated the discussion, let's set aside the fraught terminology of - magic, spells, fighters, realism, etc - and settle on a clear definition of the kinds of abilities being excluded. Consider natural vs supernatural. For our purposes, here's a test:

"Is the feat in question the same in kind as an ordinary feat?" For instance, a man can break a rock with a hammer. Perfectly natural. Now, our hero walks up to a castle wall with his warhammer and smashes a breach in it that 4 knights could ride abreast through. That's impossible, it's superhuman, but it's not supernatural: it's still basically just breaking a rock with a hammer. Or maybe he simply leaps over the castle wall. Again, impossible, way beyond the world's record high jump, and he's wearing full armor. But, people can leap. It's like hopping over a knee-high railing, in kind, which is perfectly natural. So leaping over the castle was is not supernatural.

No leaping over a castle wall is supernatural... by your logic above leaping to the moon or leaping into another dimension or even leaping through time would all fall under leaping and thus not supernatural... not buying it, at least not with the reasoning you've set forth.

On the other side, consider a man without a hammer talking to a rock, and the rock shattering. That's not natural, even though it's well within the abilities of people to break rocks. In D&D, it's a classic spell, called Shatter, and you can use more powerful spells to take down (or put back up) a castle wall. Plenty of other things are supernatural. Mind-to-mind Telepathy (actual two-way contact with awareness of another mind, not just 'ESP,' which can be put down to intuition, cold-reading, and lucky guesses), Teleportation, de-materialization, ex nillo conjuration, etc...

Make sense?

No you're accomplishing the same supernatural thing but then claiming one is magic and the other isn't because... arbitrary thing... the right pitch and frequency (just sounds... which humans can make) can shatter rocks, so that shouldn't be supernatural either...

When an ability in D&D crosses the line between accomplishing what people normally can and the superhuman, it generally gets a free pass /if/ it's supernatural, but it's likely questioned if it's not.

That's the double standard.

That's not a double standard, that's defining impossible things as supernatural...

Heck, sometimes, even if a non-supernatural ability /is/ arguably within the realms of merely-human ability, it catches flack.

Eh, I guess... again any examples so we can talk about something concrete?

 

[Satyrn]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I've parsed this sentence correctly. Is your point that superhuman abilities are necessarily magical and would thus spoil the non-supernatural option for the base fighter, or that the base fighter must be /both/ non-magical, and incapable of exceeding normal human abilities, regardless of the means or rationale thereof?

It is in need of significant editing, aye! So yes, I'm saying the latter.

I want the option to play nonmagical, nonsuperhuman characters.

 

[Satyrn]

Yep.

Would a new class, much like a fighter but with superhuman features be acceptable?

 

[smbakeresq]

Certainly! Fighters are proficient in both daggers and leather armor.

That fighter is also a highly trained warrior who is trained in both greatswords and heavy armor, but there are plenty of reasons why they might still choose to use a dagger and leather armor, either some or all of the time.

Except for I have never seen one in 5 e at the table, mentioned in the forums, talked about on reddit, etc. The rule set is dictating choices, and a dual dagger wielder in leather armor will go rogue swashbuckler or monk. The fighter who decided to build that way and focus on it should be better than those classes at it, since he is highly trained.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Except for I have never seen one in 5 e at the table, mentioned in the forums, talked about on reddit, etc. The rule set is dictating choices, and a dual dagger wielder in leather armor will go rogue swashbuckler or monk. The fighter who decided to build that way and focus on it should be better than those classes at it, since he is highly trained.

Which is why I've long been a proponent on weapon damage based on class

 

[Ovinomancer]

Not really there are quite a few games that have been created specifically to be "not D&D" but whatevs...



So do D&D fighters...by mid-level a D&D fighter can do most things well within the range of the average action hero... even the average sword and sorcery (without magic) hero... Or are you claiming they can't? If so I'd be open to hearing some examples...




I don't think psionics slides on any double standard... it's very clearly in the realm of mystical, reality bending pseudo power... in other words magic by another name, which it's even been treated as in some editions of D&D.



What genre are you even talking about... it can't be the genre of D&D because well that's whatever D&D is at the moment... the biggest influences of the creators were swords and sorcery... so is that the genre we are speaking to? Fantasy in general?



I asked for an example of a game that allows a fighter to do these types of feats and doesn't define them as magical, psionic, whatever in nature as opposed to just naturally occuring in a fighter... Not sure what this paragraph was addressing...




No leaping over a castle wall is supernatural... by your logic above leaping to the moon or leaping into another dimension or even leaping through time would all fall under leaping and thus not supernatural... not buying it, at least not with the reasoning you've set forth.



No you're accomplishing the same supernatural thing but then claiming one is magic and the other isn't because... arbitrary thing... the right pitch and frequency (just sounds... which humans can make) can shatter rocks, so that shouldn't be supernatural either...



That's not a double standard, that's defining impossible things as supernatural...



Eh, I guess... again any examples so we can talk about something concrete?

I have an example! D&D, pretty much any edition, mid-to-high level fighter falls 200' or more and can stick the landing.

Or, also D&D, most editions, fighter stands against horde of creatures and fights them off an lives to talk about it. Reality has the first lucky hit end with the fighter/warrior dying.

Or, maybe, the D&D fighter that faces the inferno of a dragon's fiery breath with naught but her shield and armor and stands defiant afterwards, hurling her warcry and throwing herself into brutal melee with a beast than dwarfs her -- and then wounds it.

The point to all of this isn't to go at you, but at the very concept that the D&D fighter is, in any way, not superhuman and not-mundane already. The difference between what a D&D fighter can do at even low levels compared to real people, even highly trained ones, can do is inhuman. SEALs, for instance, are badasses, but they win mostly because they control the battle through planning and daring tactics designed to interfere with their opponents psychology, not by personally being able to singlehandedly murder everyone in a straight fight. Straight fights are what get SEALs killed. Not so the D&D fighter, who excels at winning straight fights against incredible things.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So do D&D fighters...by mid-level a D&D fighter can do most things well within the range of the average action hero... even the average sword and sorcery (without magic) hero...

'Average' is an odd qualifier to put on there. Heroes aren't typically average. Certainly a high-level D&D character is not meant to be run-of-the-mill in any sense.

I don't think psionics slides on any double standard... it's very clearly in the realm of mystical, reality bending pseudo power... in other words magic y another name, which it's even been treated as in some editions of D&D.

That's the point, it's nominally 'not magic' in some views, but it's still supernatural, and gets to follow the 'magic' half of the community double-standard, rather than being held to realism - which'd be, y'know, guessing square, triangle, or wavy lines...

What genre are you even talking about...

The broader fantasy genre, so anything from Lewis to Tolkien to Howard to Moorcock etc.., plus other media than literature, plus myth/legend.

D&D pulled magical powers and items from that whole range, plus a few bits from science-fiction.

No leaping over a castle wall is supernatural...

People jump over things all the time. Perfectly natural. In fantasy, in myth/legend, in tall tales, the hard limits of reality don't apply to such feats. In D&D they do, unless you wave your hand and claim magic, then it's fine. That's the double-standard, right there.

by your logic above leaping to the moon

Depends on the setting. If the moon is just separated from the world by distance, sure. If it's a globe of quintessence on the odyllic plane, presumably not.

or leaping into another dimension or even leaping through time would all fall under leaping and thus not supernatura...

Not at all, no. "Other dimensions" aren't part of normal experience, you can't get to them by any means, visiting them is supernatural. Likewise, traveling through time in any direction other than forward, and any rate other than 1/1, is supernatural. OTOH, dreaming is a common experience, so you might 'visit another dimension' in a dream without any supernatural agency involved - of course, it could just be a dream.

(Yeah, I suppose really out there science can shade into the supernatural, too, like 'sufficiently advanced technology.')

No you're accomplishing the same supernatural thing but then claiming one is magic and the other isn't because... arbitrary thing...

It's not arbitrary, it's the same in kind. Leaping is leaping, leaping a greater distance is not different in kind from leaping a shorter distance. 'Leaping' through time, into an alternate dimension, or without traversing any of the points between, that's different in kind.

It's not an arbitrary, nor even difficult concept. Why are you unwilling to acknowledge it?

the right pitch and frequency (just sounds... which humans can make)

Yeah, I said 'rock' not 'crystal' for a reason.

That's not a double standard, that's defining impossible things as supernatural...

It is a double-standard. Impossible things get done all the time, they stop being impossible once someone succeeds - but they were never supernatural. Running a mile in 4 minutes was thought impossible - until someone did it in 1954. But that kind of superhuman performance has always been possible - for animals. They're not supernatural.

It is in need of significant editing, aye! So yes, I'm saying the latter.

I want the option to play nonmagical, nonsuperhuman characters.

Nod. I suppose you could refuse to accept experience points before it crosses the line. At what point does surviving a fall from a great height become superhuman, for instance?

Would a new class, much like a fighter but with superhuman features be acceptable?

Like a Warblade or Warlord or 4e Fighter('Weaponmaster')? Sure, it'd be a reasonable approach. The fighter chassis is pretty locked-down in terms of design space, anyway.

But sprucing the fighter up would still be a good idea. For instance, if the goal is to keep it mundane, there's /lots/ of additional mundane abilities or perks it could be given: additional skills, Expertise, followers, bonus feats (not ASIs, specific feats-as-class-features bypassing the no-feat option)...

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Except for I have never seen one in 5 e at the table, mentioned in the forums, talked about on reddit, etc. The rule set is dictating choices, and a dual dagger wielder in leather armor will go rogue swashbuckler or monk. The fighter who decided to build that way and focus on it should be better than those classes at it, since he is highly trained.

Are monks proficient in light armor?

Yeah, the rules inform a lot of decisions at the table, and they kind of suggest that some ideas should not be played even if they are theoretically possible. Heavy armor is, generally speaking, better than light armor; and fighters are generally better served by wearing that. There are some exceptions, of course, just like there are some exceptions where you would want a fighter to take the lead in a social situation. They're just obscure or unlikely scenarios that don't come up much, which is why nobody talks about them.

If you want a world where the best professional warriors have a good reason to use daggers and wear leather armor all the time, then that's not any world which the 5E ruleset describes. Any given ruleset can only adequately describe a small sub-set of possible worlds, and 5E wasn't designed with that goal in mind.

 

[Imaro]

I have an example! D&D, pretty much any edition, mid-to-high level fighter falls 200' or more and can stick the landing.

Or, also D&D, most editions, fighter stands against horde of creatures and fights them off an lives to talk about it. Reality has the first lucky hit end with the fighter/warrior dying.

Or, maybe, the D&D fighter that faces the inferno of a dragon's fiery breath with naught but her shield and armor and stands defiant afterwards, hurling her warcry and throwing herself into brutal melee with a beast than dwarfs her -- and then wounds it.

I don't really think these take flak from the majority of D&D players... I don't see tons of thread about falling damage being unrealistic or how do fighters avoid dragon's breath with a save... of course these all fall pretty much in the realm of feats that sword and sorcery, pulp heroes can and have accomplished in literature... which again was the main influence in D&D's original creation.

The point to all of this isn't to go at you, but at the very concept that the D&D fighter is, in any way, not superhuman and not-mundane already. The difference between what a D&D fighter can do at even low levels compared to real people, even highly trained ones, can do is inhuman. SEALs, for instance, are badasses, but they win mostly because they control the battle through planning and daring tactics designed to interfere with their opponents psychology, not by personally being able to singlehandedly murder everyone in a straight fight. Straight fights are what get SEALs killed. Not so the D&D fighter, who excels at winning straight fights against incredible things.

I'm not sure you're arguing against what I'm saying there's a big difference between the sword and sorcery or pulp hero feats (similar to the one's you listed above) and say cutting a mountain in half with a sword swing. I can picture Conan or Fafhrd and Gray Mouser doing the things you listed above without magical aid... I can't picture them slicing a mountain in half, running up sheer cliff and leaping over castle walls.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I don't really think these take flak from the majority of D&D players... I don't see tons of thread about falling damage being unrealistic or how do fighters avoid dragon's breath with a save...

Falling damage is always a sticking point in the great HP debates, because it's one of the few things where skill and fatigue can't be argued. Personally, I'm fine with fighters (or anyone, really) surviving a particularly long fall, because they are fantastically (but not supernaturally) tough. The line I draw is when they climb back up and do it over and over again, or when they take a nap and suddenly they're good as new.