D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[Imaro]

'Average' is an odd qualifier to put on there. Heroes aren't typically average. Certainly a high-level D&D character is not meant to be run-of-the-mill in any sense.

Are you even reading what I posted... the average action hero in no way speaks to what an action hero does only that I'm tending to ignore extremes at the end of the spectrum.

That's the point, it's nominally 'not magic' in some views, but it's still supernatural, and gets to follow the 'magic' half of the community double-standard, rather than being held to realism - which'd be, y'know, guessing square, triangle, or wavy lines...

Still not seeing the double standard... Psionics is magic, in the same way Invocations, Ki and other things are magic... what it isn't is casting spells...

The broader fantasy genre, so anything from Lewis to Tolkien to Howard to Moorcock etc.., plus other media than literature, plus myth/legend.

Well that's one of your problems right there... D&D has never done... all fantasy ever created...as its genre. Does any game?

D&D pulled magical powers and items from that whole range, plus a few bits from science-fiction.

actually it pulled from mostly pulp ( and specifically sword and sorcery) sources for it's genesis... Yes it pulled from other sources but we are talking about the genre it's creators cited it as borrowing most heavily from.

People jump over things all the time. Perfectly natural. In fantasy, in myth/legend, in tall tales, the hard limits of reality don't apply to such feats. In D&D they do, unless you wave your hand and claim magic, then it's fine. That's the double-standard, right there.

What double standard... magic let's you do things that you couldn't normally do? again not a double standard, it's defining magic

Depends on the setting. If the moon is just separated from the world by distance, sure. If it's a globe of quintessence on the odyllic plane, presumably not.

What's the difference a jump is a jump... right?

Not at all, no. "Other dimensions" aren't part of normal experience, you can't get to them by any means, visiting them is supernatural. Likewise, traveling through time in any direction other than forward, and any rate other than 1/1, is supernatural. OTOH, dreaming is a common experience, so you might 'visit another dimension' in a dream without any supernatural agency involved - of course, it could just be a dream.

(Yeah, I suppose really out there science can shade into the supernatural, too, like 'sufficiently advanced technology.')

But wasn't your point that the action of jumping was normal and thus jumping impossible distances (which could include through space, across other dimensions and across time) shouldn't take magic... again I'm seeing arbitrary distinctions being made here.

It's not arbitrary, it's the same in kind. Leaping is leaping, leaping a greater distance is not different in kind from leaping a shorter distance. 'Leaping' through time, into an alternate dimension, or without traversing any of the points between, that's different in kind.

No it's not I'm leaping from one point to another point in all instances (the only difference is the distance, speed, etc I am jumping... again arbitrary distinction.

It's not an arbitrary, nor even difficult concept. Why are you unwilling to acknowledge it?

For the same reason you seem unwilling to acknowledge you are drawing arbitrary distinctions.

Yeah, I said 'rock' not 'crystal' for a reason.

Rocks can also be shattered by the right frequency, pitch, harmonics, etc... so can crystals...

It is a double-standard. Impossible things get done all the time, they stop being impossible once someone succeeds - but they were never supernatural. Running a mile in 4 minutes was thought impossible - until someone did it in 1954. But that kind of superhuman performance has always been possible - for animals. They're not supernatural.

Plenty of people think jumping across dimensions and through space to the moon is impossible but the minute someone does it... they won't. And the minute you're playing a bird, well flight won't be supernatural but if you choose to play a human it kind of is.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Well that's one of your problems right there... D&D has never done... all fantasy ever created...as its genre.

D&D harvested monsters, magic items, and magical effects for spells from all over the genre, from myth/legend the world over, and even strayed into science fiction.

What double standard...

The other is a variant of the "guy at the gym" fallacy that drives me up the wall. Some people want the Fighter to be Conan or John McClane- a regular human who persists and wins despite not having cool magic powers. They don't want Cú Chulainn or Achilles- who can perform superhuman feats in battle.

Yep, there's a pervasive double-standard in the D&D community. D&D only uses fantasy tropes for monsters and PCs that use magic, unless you can plead magic, you're relegated to bizarre, un-evenly-applied, reality-isn't-real, 'realism.'​

This is, unfortunately, so true!
There's massive outcry if the fighter gets anything remotely non-mundane - even if it's just a nod to the abstraction of combat in D&D.
Best example I can think of recently was when the designers tried to put in some damage on a miss mechanics (ex. even if you miss you do your strength mod in damage) - the outcry was swift and massive.

Or, using the defined terms 'superhuman' and 'supernatural:'

When an ability in D&D crosses the line between accomplishing what people normally can and the superhuman, it generally gets a free pass /if/ it's supernatural, but it's likely questioned if it's not.
​

That double standard.
​

But wasn't your point that the action of jumping was normal and thus jumping impossible distances (which could include through space

Yes. Jumping higher and further than normal is not supernatural - superhuman, sure, but not supernatural.

across other dimensions and across time)

Not distance. Jumping over a 20' curtain wall is jumping an incredible distance, but it's jumping a distance, castle walls have a height. How many feet is it to the moon is a weird question, but you could answer it, it's a distance.
How many feet is to Pandamonium or 1066 AD has no answer, it's nonsense, a paradox.

 

[Mistwell]

We all want the fighter to be more than a common man right? We want all PCs to be heroic and not ordinary, right? So whether you call it magic, or supernatural, or extraordinary, or whatever, we want them to do things ordinary people don't do - like slaying multiple foes in a single sweep of their sword, or holding off hordes as the party escapes down a tunnel, or surviving a hail of arrows, right?

 

[Tony Vargas]

We all want the fighter to be more than a common man right?

Sadras, at least, is on record as wanting the fighter to be neither magical, nor superhuman.

We want all PCs to be heroic and not ordinary, right? So whether you call it magic, or supernatural, or extraordinary, or whatever, we want them to do things ordinary people don't do - like slaying multiple foes, or holding off hordes as the party escapes down a tunnel, or surviving a hail of arrows, right?

Not just those things (I mean, a nasty enough pit trap can slay multiple foes, hold off the rest of the horde for a while, and endure quite a rain of arrows before it's filled up - anyone want to play a pit?*), but just about every PC can do each of those, at least (most can do more, a whole lot more as they level). The fighter's likely chasing down those multiple foes and taking longer to kill them than the wizard's fireball, and hurting a worse after holding the corridor or weathering the hail of arrows than the guy who accomplished the same feats with a wall of force or while shapechanged into somethingorother for the mound of free hps...


































* It's the internet: someone not only does, someone /has/.

 

[Lehrbuch]

The point to all of this isn't to go at you, but at...

I'm not sure you're arguing against what I'm saying there's a big difference between the sword and sorcery or pulp hero feats (similar to the one's you listed above) and say cutting a mountain in half with a sword swing...

I think you are addressing a comment from Ovinomancer here; not me.

 

[Lehrbuch]

I have an example! D&D, pretty much any edition, mid-to-high level fighter falls 200' or more and can stick the landing.

Or, also D&D, most editions, fighter stands against horde of creatures and fights them off an lives to talk about it. Reality has the first lucky hit end with the fighter/warrior dying.

Or, maybe, the D&D fighter that faces the inferno of a dragon's fiery breath with naught but her shield and armor and stands defiant afterwards, hurling her warcry and throwing herself into brutal melee with a beast than dwarfs her -- and then wounds it...

I use the Bruce Willis Razor on these sorts of questions. If we can imagine a typical Bruce Willis character doing these things in a movie, then it's mundane fighter work.

The typical Bruce Willis is trained. But often as something relatively common like a cop. He's just personally badass/lucky/resourceful enough to survive taking on "impossible" odds, usually with a bit of jumping off high things and so forth, thrown in. Even if he might need to subsequently spend a scene or two being manfully attended to by a hot and/or comedic paramedic.

This is pretty much what I think most players expect of a "generic" fighter.

 

[Imaro]

D&D harvested monsters, magic items, and magical effects for spells from all over the genre, from myth/legend the world over, and even strayed into science fiction.

Yes... it borrowed individual elements and threw them in a mixture... that in no way equates to being able to emulate any genre of fantasy... it's like claiming throwing in the random ingredients of various dishes into a blender allows one to take the result and create any of those individual dishes... doesn't work like that.

Yep, there's a pervasive double-standard in the D&D community. D&D only uses fantasy tropes for monsters and PCs that use magic, unless you can plead magic, you're relegated to bizarre, un-evenly-applied, reality-isn't-real, 'realism.'

This is absurd... are you seriously claiming that the Champion, Battlemaster, Thief, Assassin and Berserker subclasses don't use fantasy tropes?

When an ability in D&D crosses the line between accomplishing what people normally can and the superhuman, it generally gets a free pass /if/ it's supernatural, but it's likely questioned if it's not.

Again disagree...the non magical fighter and thief do all kinds of things since 1e that a common man couldn't... but yeah there is a limit that people want... some want non-magical to be Batman and some want non-magical to be Superman...

That double standard.

It's not a double standard...it's a fantasy preference.

Yes. Jumping higher and further than normal is not supernatural - superhuman, sure, but not supernatural.

Puh-tay-toe...Puh-tah-toe...

Not distance. Jumping over a 20' curtain wall is jumping an incredible distance, but it's jumping a distance, castle walls have a height. How many feet is it to the moon is a weird question, but you could answer it, it's a distance.
How many feet is to Pandamonium or 1066 AD has no answer, it's nonsense, a paradox.

You're really just using the wrong measurement is all....

 

[Imaro]

We all want the fighter to be more than a common man right? We want all PCs to be heroic and not ordinary, right? So whether you call it magic, or supernatural, or extraordinary, or whatever, we want them to do things ordinary people don't do - like slaying multiple foes in a single sweep of their sword, or holding off hordes as the party escapes down a tunnel, or surviving a hail of arrows, right?

The thing is 5e has given us 4 flavors of fighters that can do things a common man can't... the real problem seems to be the one that does the most superhuman feats... uses magic to accomplish it. Not sure why this matters if the goal really is to have a fighter who can accomplish the superhuman... I can only guess some people want to claim their character is Batman while playing a Kryptonian, under a yellow sun... Otherwise why is having magic as the source of your power any worse than being able to do it through say...divine/alien heritage? Or better yet the "martial" power source..,

 

[Hussar]

I guess look at it like this. If you tell me your race and class, and I can tell you exactly what each of your stats are without looking at your character sheet, that doesn't sit right with me. I get how this is totally a personal preference thing. Taken to the extreme, why have stats at all? why not just say, "If you're a fighter, get +3 to hit and damage with either ranged or melee weapons. Gain +1 to this every 4 levels. If you're a half orc, gain +1 to hit and damage with weapons." etc etc if every single half orc fighter currently has the same end result as that.

Betcha can't.

I played a standard array human ranger up to 8th level in a recent Ravenloft campaign. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you would be very, very wrong about my stats.

 

[Hussar]

Umm, if you want fighters that are absolutely, 100% non-supernatural in nature, why are you accepting the 5e fighter?

I have non-magical healing at 1st level. I can take several times my total HP over the course of the day, so long as I get a short rest in between each bit of damage, and by the end of the day, not have a single scratch on me.

Sorry folks, but, if you wanted a mundane fighter, you lost that argument during the Next playtest.