D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[Alexemplar]

Sure, that's generally true. But again, it really depends on the setting and the tone of the game or story. There is a default assumption of setting baked into the game, but that doesn't mean it's universal. If you just look back at the examples of characters that could be or are Fighters cited in this thread....the list is pretty encompassing.

Conan, John McClane, Batman, Jaime Lannister, Riverwind, Jean Tannin, Croaker, Hector, Athos....and so on. Different degrees of ability based on what makes sense for the world/setting/genre.

I'm saying that level of super human strength and/or narrative power needs to be generally proportional to a setting's power level and how often that power level is encountered. Simply being brave but otherwise mundane only gets you so far where others are also brave, but wield powers beyond the mundane on a regular basis. Those fictional characters already benefit from narrative help- so giving warriors some narrative mechanics would help.

What makes a Wizard cool is the spells...

Sure, let's look at that.

At 1st level, both the Wizard and the Fighter classes get to choose armor, weapon, tool, and armor proficiencies. The Fighter gets more variety in the armor/weapon department and both are equal in terms of tool/armor proficiencies.

Then the Fighter chooses 1 Fighting Style from a list of half a dozen or so fighting styles. Things like getting a +2 bonus to one kind of weapon, rerolling damage dice on another kind of weapon, a +2 bonus to hitting with another weapon, ability score damage with another weapon, or +1 AC.

Then the Wizard chooses 3 cantrips that range from the ability to repair objects with a touch, create illusions, or produce various forms of energy virtually whenever they want. Then they choose 6 spells from another list of over two dozen- which can do things like allow you to speak any language, take on the appearance of another person, put someone to sleep, or summon fire in a virtual instant several times a day.

The difference between two Wizards is much greater than it is between two Fighters. And they can swap out spells every long rest and get more as they level up.

What makes a Paladin cool is the smiting.

At 1st level, Paladins have just as much variety in their armor and weapon selection as Fighters, plus the ability to seek out certain supernatural creatures and heal with a touch. By the time they get smiting, they've not only gained the Fighter's weapon style, but they get the ability to choose ANY spell from a list of a dozen that they can use a couple times a day. Also, the Paladin uses Charisma as a primary score and gets Insight and Persuasion on its list of proficiencies, so they're much better at talking things out without smashing it than the Fighter- not that they can't smash stuff either.

What makes a Fighter cool? It's up to the player.

You can make a varied/cool characters using any class. It's just that other classes give you more effective options and choices than the Fighter. In order for the Fighter to have the same amount of effective options and choices it needs MORE effective options and choices because it doesn't have them. Options and abilities that amount to more than dealing more/taking less damage. Options and abilities that can compete with the ability to heal/repair with a touch, detect supernatural monsters with a sixth sense, put someone to sleep in an instant, etc. Options that all the other classes have.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I'm saying that level of super human strength and/or narrative power needs to be generally proportional to a setting's power level and how often that power level is encountered. Simply being brave but otherwise mundane only gets you so far where others are also brave, but wield powers beyond the mundane on a regular basis. Those fictional characters already benefit from narrative help- so giving warriors some narrative mechanics would help.

If you want power level to be appropriate for the tone of the setting, then the abilities of a fighter should scale with what spellcasters can do. Fighters shouldn't be able to do impossible things unless the impossible things a spellcaster can do are especially egregious, because that means you're playing in an above-and-beyond type setting where those things are appropriate. If there's only small magic in the setting, then fighters should be limited to doing things that are fairly realistic.

The thing is, the spells available to a spellcaster are pretty much constant across all settings. They haven't really published a setting where a level 9 cleric can't cast raise dead, or a level 13 wizard can't teleport. If you want a less-fantastic setting where those things aren't commonplace, then you need to make it stay at low levels so the spellcasters never learn those spells.

That also means it should be safe to give the fighter mythic abilities at high levels, though. Once you let players get to level 15, you're already saying that it's a super-high magic setting where teleportation and resurrection are readily available, and at that point it's tone-appropriate for a fighter to swim up a waterfall.

 

[Sacrosanct]

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If he was a fighter, he would have made his saving throw vs spells and you'd be out of luck.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I'm saying that level of super human strength and/or narrative power needs to be generally proportional to a setting's power level and how often that power level is encountered. Simply being brave but otherwise mundane only gets you so far where others are also brave, but wield powers beyond the mundane on a regular basis. Those fictional characters already benefit from narrative help- so giving warriors some narrative mechanics would help.




Sure, let's look at that.

At 1st level, both the Wizard and the Fighter classes get to choose armor, weapon, tool, and armor proficiencies. The Fighter gets more variety in the armor/weapon department and both are equal in terms of tool/armor proficiencies.

Then the Fighter chooses 1 Fighting Style from a list of half a dozen or so fighting styles. Things like getting a +2 bonus to one kind of weapon, rerolling damage dice on another kind of weapon, a +2 bonus to hitting with another weapon, ability score damage with another weapon, or +1 AC.

Then the Wizard chooses 3 cantrips that range from the ability to repair objects with a touch, create illusions, or produce various forms of energy virtually whenever they want. Then they choose 6 spells from another list of over two dozen- which can do things like allow you to speak any language, take on the appearance of another person, put someone to sleep, or summon fire in a virtual instant several times a day.

The difference between two Wizards is much greater than it is between two Fighters. And they can swap out spells every long rest and get more as they level up.



At 1st level, Paladins have just as much variety in their armor and weapon selection as Fighters, plus the ability to seek out certain supernatural creatures and heal with a touch. By the time they get smiting, they've not only gained the Fighter's weapon style, but they get the ability to choose ANY spell from a list of a dozen that they can use a couple times a day. Also, the Paladin uses Charisma as a primary score and gets Insight and Persuasion on its list of proficiencies, so they're much better at talking things out without smashing it than the Fighter- not that they can't smash stuff either.





You can make a varied/cool characters using any class. It's just that other classes give you more effective options and choices than the Fighter. In order for the Fighter to have the same amount of effective options and choices it needs MORE effective options and choices because it doesn't have them. Options and abilities that amount to more than dealing more/taking less damage. Options and abilities that can compete with the ability to heal/repair with a touch, detect supernatural monsters with a sixth sense, put someone to sleep in an instant, etc. Options that all the other classes have.

I don't agree. My point is that they don't have the bells and whistles that other classes have. I don't think every class needs to have an equal amount of options. Nor do I think a class with less options is inferior to one with more.

To me, this is what makes the Fighter interesting. Or at least, that's where the potential for interest lay. To me, leaning on mechanics to differentiate one character from another isn't much of a case for variety ("oh you're an Evoker and he's an Abjurer, wow, so different"). The Fighter has less to lean on in this area. They pick a fighting style and a pretty vaguely defined subclass, and that's it. Their background is more defining for them.

And yes, this can be true of any character and any class. But it is most true for a Fighter. Fighters can very easily be very bland characters, I know. And for many that's fine. They can sit around and wait to take their turn, hack the monster, and there you go. But that need not be the case. There are enough options and mechanics for a Fighter to improve his non-combat abilities.

And then there's also the non-mechanical aspect of the personality that the player decides to instill in the Fighter. And this is perhaps the most important because of the lack of bells and whistles.

 

[Hillsy7]

And then there's also the non-mechanical aspect of the personality that the player decides to instill in the Fighter. And this is perhaps the most important because of the lack of bells and whistles.

Indeed - a Fighters mechanics get out of the way of the character. It is almost the opposite of the Warklock. Yes, this can invoke the paradox of choice because it doesn't have the prompts and abilities to use as starting points. It does however mesh with anyone, from any background, with any history, who wants to be a hero. That's it's best, and worst, feature.....

 

[Alexemplar]

I don't agree. My point is that they don't have the bells and whistles that other classes have. I don't think every class needs to have an equal amount of options. Nor do I think a class with less options is inferior to one with more.

No, options in and of themselves don't have meaning. However many options actually do. What matters is the actual effects those options have and the Fighter's relative lack of options means that when it comes to dealing with a situation that doesn't involve hitting it until it's dead, it's pretty much at a loss compared to all other classes that have options other than that. Classes that can also usually fall back on hitting things until they're dead just fine (sometimes better than the Fighter).

To me, this is what makes the Fighter interesting. Or at least, that's where the potential for interest lay. To me, leaning on mechanics to differentiate one character from another isn't much of a case for variety ("oh you're an Evoker and he's an Abjurer, wow, so different"). The Fighter has less to lean on in this area. They pick a fighting style and a pretty vaguely defined subclass, and that's it. Their background is more defining for them.

"Oh, you're a two weapon fighter and he's a duelist. Wow, so different," Yes, it's very easy to be dismissive of what is actually a more substantive difference.

But that doesn't change the fact that a Wizard can lean hard into it's many choices AND lean hard into a specific set of tactics, a specific personality, or background while the Fighter is restricted in former.

And yes, this can be true of any character and any class. But it is most true for a Fighter. Fighters can very easily be very bland characters, I know. And for many that's fine. They can sit around and wait to take their turn, hack the monster, and there you go. But that need not be the case. There are enough options and mechanics for a Fighter to improve his non-combat abilities.

And then there's also the non-mechanical aspect of the personality that the player decides to instill in the Fighter. And this is perhaps the most important because of the lack of bells and whistles.

It's not "most true" of the fighter. A player who leans hard into roleplaying unique non-mechanical characteristics in order to distinguish their character does not find tools to help them in the Fighter any more than other classes. It's just more notable in the fighter because it's pretty much the ONLY meaningful choice the character gets to make while every other class gets to make that choice PLUS those presented by their class.

The only advantage the Fighter has is that it's easier to make a character without having to make as many choices in character creation and gameplay. I would think that D&D would eventually release a simply blasty class as there's no reason to restrict such... restrictions solely to Fighters. I know so many players that want to play a spellcaster just so they can blast stuff every round but would prefer not to have to sort through a dozen spells and their associated mechanics just so they can roll a dice to hit and deal Xd8 fire/acid/lightning/cold damage.

 

[Greg Benage]

That also means it should be safe to give the fighter mythic abilities at high levels, though. Once you let players get to level 15, you're already saying that it's a super-high magic setting where teleportation and resurrection are readily available, and at that point it's tone-appropriate for a fighter to swim up a waterfall.

I actually kind of agree, but I don't want to add those "mythic" abilities to the base class. I prefer adding them through subclasses, multiclassing, and probably most important, through gear (magic items). In the campaign I ran to 20th level, the single-classed fighter was "just a battlemaster," but he had a +3 vorpal flametongue greatsword, wings of flying, a Hercules ripoff lionskin mantle of spell resistance complete with headpiece, Irae T'Sarran's Eyes of the Spider implant from City of the Spider Queen that gave him 360-degree Truesight to 120 ft., immunity to mind-affecting magic, and a gaze attack.

He was a badass superhero, but not because the base class makes all 20th-level fighters superheroes. He was a superhero because of the legendary gear he won in the course of his adventures. All the PCs had magic items, of course, but there's no question the fighter benefited the most from them. That felt right for this campaign. If I were to do something like Dawnforge 5e, I'd want to build more superpowers into the subclasses/legendary paths. But I still wouldn't want them built into the base class, because it's easier to add on where appropriate than it is to strip out stuff every time I run a traditional D&D game.

 

[Mort]

... he had a +3 vorpal flametongue greatsword, wings of flying, a Hercules ripoff lionskin mantle of spell resistance complete with headpiece, Irae T'Sarran's Eyes of the Spider implant from City of the Spider Queen that gave him 360-degree Truesight to 120 ft., immunity to mind-affecting magic, and a gaze attack.

He was a badass superhero, but not because the base class makes all 20th-level fighters superheroes. He was a superhero because of the legendary gear he won in the course of his adventures. All the PCs had magic items, of course, but there's no question the fighter benefited the most from them...

This is why, when the DM sets up a high level gear stripping scenario, the wizard and cleric player frown but quickly move on, while the fighter's player goes to quietly cry in the Corner (and the DM has to avoid thrown dice).




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[Tony Vargas]

I actually kind of agree, but I don't want to add those "mythic" abilities to the base class. I prefer adding them through subclasses, multiclassing, and probably most important, through gear (magic items)

Sub-classes? Sure! Multi-classing? It'd mean adding a class with such abilities, since no such class currently exists to do so without spellcasting or other explicitly magical abilities, but, again, sure. Items? Nah. Items in 5e range from lily-gilding to game-breaking, and are rightly the province of the DM.

A major item can be well-used in a campaign-defining way, but it probably shouldn't be character-defining, and certainly shouldn't be necessary just to make a character competitive or even just viable.

 

[Greg Benage]

This is why, when the DM sets up a high level gear stripping scenario, the wizard and cleric player frown but quickly move on, while the fighter's player goes to quietly cry in the Corner (and the DM has to avoid thrown dice).

I guess the DM could also "set up" a high-level scenario in a dead magic zone, sending the spellcasters to the corner in tears, but I'm not sure why we'd build our design philosophy around edge cases.