D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[Greg Benage]

Every 5e sub class in the PHB except battlemaster, champion, theif, assassin, and berserker has explicitly supernatural powers/casts spells. I mean it's certainly conceivable in theory but I don't see many D&D players buying in on a game with that many classes removed.

Yeah, I'd add SCAG classes, some UA, and probably even the Open Hand monk, depending on the flavor of S&S. And fortunately, I only have to please my players.

 

[Alexemplar]

If balance were a greater concern in 5e, I'd argue that the fighter 'needs' such so-called superpowers just to keep up. But there's no mandate for any class to keep up with any other. :shrug:

Except for you know, the Ranger which h is getting redone.

I think it's more about that feeling of familiarity/tradition that keeps Fighters on their current trajectory (or lack thereof). People honestly believe that to give the class more utility or abilities beyond more damage/ac/hit bonuses is to move away from its roots so as not to be sufficiently D&D in feel.

And since most current D&D players started in 3rd edition (including myself), that's our most common reference point.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Every 5e sub class in the PHB except battlemaster, champion, theif, assassin, and berserker has explicitly supernatural powers/casts spells. I mean it's certainly conceivable in theory but I don't see many D&D players buying in on a game with that many classes removed.

I could, but it'd be problematic, they don't cover a broad enough range of party contributions.

Except for you know, the Ranger which h is getting redone.

Isn't that more for muddled identity than balance?

I think it's more about that feeling of familiarity/tradition that keeps Fighters on their current trajectory (or lack thereof). People honestly believe that to give the class more utility or abilities beyond more damage/ac/hit bonuses is to move away from its roots so as not to be sufficiently D&D in feel.

Sound about right.

And since most current D&D players started in 3rd edition....

I kinda doubt that.

 

[Greg Benage]

I think it's more about that feeling of familiarity/tradition that keeps Fighters on their current trajectory (or lack thereof). People honestly believe that to give the class more utility or abilities beyond more damage/ac/hit bonuses is to move away from its roots so as not to be sufficiently D&D in feel.

And since most current D&D players started in 3rd edition (including myself), that's our most common reference point.

I stared (ETA: and also started) with AD&D in 1980, but I have no objections at all to giving fighters more utility or abilities beyond combat. I like the EK and various UA subclasses that add out of combat abilities. I'm playing a Purple Dragon Knight who is "campaign optimized" (the game is set in Cormyr and something's gone awry with divine magic). He's great in the combat and social pillars.

None of that has anything to do with my preference that the base fighter class not gain abilities that allow them to run up waterfalls, and other such examples from this thread.

 

[Mort]

I stared with AD&D in 1980, but I have no objections at all to giving fighters more utility or abilities beyond combat.

I started in 1986 myself, my first character was a fighter with a 11 strength in a party with an 18 INT wizard and an 18 DEX rogue (supposedly everyone rolled 3d6 in order, I have my doubts).

I like the EK and various UA subclasses that add out of combat abilities. I'm playing a Purple Dragon Knight who is "campaign optimized" (the game is set in Cormyr and something's gone awry with divine magic). He's great in the combat and social pillars.

None of that has anything to do with my preference that the base fighter class not gain abilities that allow them to run up waterfalls, and other such examples from this thread.

What about some strictly mechanical add-ons to help the fighter?
- such as (posted these earlier but it's a long thread):

1) 2nd wind scaling better with level (heck cantrips do);
2) earlier use of multiple attacks, MOST martial classes get it at level 5, give it to the fighter at level 3 and give the third attack at 6-8 (11 is far down the road);
3) give fighters access to the various styles (defense, dueling etc.) more often and earlier, say access to new style every other level - makes sense to me that the guy dedicated to fighting (and not splitting his attention like the paladin) would be able to learn and switch styles as appropriate.

Stuff like that (strictly mechanical, non-magical, non-mythic)?

 

[Greg Benage]

What about some strictly mechanical add-ons to help the fighter?
- such as (posted these earlier but it's a long thread):

1) 2nd wind scaling better with level (heck cantrips do);
2) earlier use of multiple attacks, MOST martial classes get it at level 5, give it to the fighter at level 3 and give the third attack at 6-8 (11 is far down the road);
3) give fighters access to the various styles (defense, dueling etc.) more often and earlier, say access to new style every other level - makes sense to me that the guy dedicated to fighting (and not splitting his attention like the paladin) would be able to learn and switch styles as appropriate.

Stuff like that (strictly mechanical, non-magical, non-mythic)?

Well, these all just seem to make the fighter better at fighting, which I don't think is needed. YMMV.

 

[Satyrn]

What about some strictly mechanical add-ons to help the fighter?
- such as (posted these earlier but it's a long thread):

1) 2nd wind scaling better with level (heck cantrips do);
2) earlier use of multiple attacks, MOST martial classes get it at level 5, give it to the fighter at level 3 and give the third attack at 6-8 (11 is far down the road);
3) give fighters access to the various styles (defense, dueling etc.) more often and earlier, say access to new style every other level - makes sense to me that the guy dedicated to fighting (and not splitting his attention like the paladin) would be able to learn and switch styles as appropriate.

Stuff like that (strictly mechanical, non-magical, non-mythic)?

I've said upthread that I don't think the fighter needs extra stuff, but if a DM's gonna give it to me then I'd say "Sweet!"

 

[Imaro]

I started in 1986 myself, my first character was a fighter with a 11 strength in a party with an 18 INT wizard and an 18 DEX rogue (supposedly everyone rolled 3d6 in order, I have my doubts).



What about some strictly mechanical add-ons to help the fighter?
- such as (posted these earlier but it's a long thread):

1) 2nd wind scaling better with level (heck cantrips do);
2) earlier use of multiple attacks, MOST martial classes get it at level 5, give it to the fighter at level 3 and give the third attack at 6-8 (11 is far down the road);
3) give fighters access to the various styles (defense, dueling etc.) more often and earlier, say access to new style every other level - makes sense to me that the guy dedicated to fighting (and not splitting his attention like the paladin) would be able to learn and switch styles as appropriate.

Stuff like that (strictly mechanical, non-magical, non-mythic)?

How does this add utility or versatility to the fighter? Or are we just trying to give him more in the combat pillar?

 

[Tony Vargas]

What about some strictly mechanical add-ons to help the fighter?
1) 2nd wind scaling better with level (heck cantrips do);

Sure. Minor, but sure.

2) earlier use of multiple attacks, MOST martial classes get it at level 5, give it to the fighter at level 3 and give the third attack at 6-8 (11 is far down the road);

My thought is actually bumping everyone else to getting their extra attacks later.

3) give fighters access to the various styles (defense, dueling etc.) more often and earlier, say access to new style every other level - makes sense to me that the guy dedicated to fighting (and not splitting his attention like the paladin) would be able to learn and switch styles as appropriate.

Maybe treat Styles more like 'Stances?' More flexibility that way.

Also keying non-combat perks to mastery of styles or maneuvers could be a nice expansion...

 

[Mort]

How does this add utility or versatility to the fighter? Or are we just trying to give him more in the combat pillar?

If we shore up the combat pillar a bit, the fighter can actually use his feats etc. to gain utility in the exploration/social tiers. of course the question then becomes, what if they just use them to gain even more combat utility - no real answer to that yet - just a few off the cuff ideas.