D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[Imaro]

Again, most games to make it to the top, so we're mostly talking about 1 extra feat. And it's at 6th, where other classes are getting nice spells/abilities that help in combat, so, yeah, the fighter is likely burning his early extra feat to improve stats (STR, CON, DEX, WIS, all for combat purposes) or picking up a feat to improve combat output. If the fighter gets the opportunity to play into higher levels, sure, they can spread things out, but that's not exactly good design OR something most games are going to see.

I think most games go past 6th level... so at least one feat that can be used on non-combat.

Meanwhile other classes are picking up ribbon or primary abilities that enable out of combat pillar competence.

Yep, and the fighter gets a few as well...

The EK spell list is going to be almost all abjuration and invocation, with the opportunity for few non-blast/defense spells open to them.

Funny, my EK was able to grab Find Familiar pretty early on and it provided alot of exploration utility for the cost of a single spell.

The BK student of war really only helps deal with combat pillar, although it does encourage a bit of social before kicking the door in (metaphorically). That doesn't occur very often - that you get a social encounter with a foe you plan to fight immediately after.

Hmm... I think you're talking about "Know Your Enemy"... "Student of War" grants you proficiency with an Artisan's tool of your choice...

The Champ does get a bit of boost on athletics, but that's not a skill that other's don't get better boosts on (looking at you rogue) or can't trivialize with spell selections. So, yeah, a handful of ribbion abilities that mostly don't even match up to other classes.

Actually it's on any Strength, Dexterity or Constitution check and increases your maximum jump distance so it's basically a boost in the exploration pillar...

As for falling behind, yeah, he does. To the paladin that takes polearm master at 4th. To the barbarian that takes GWM at 4th. To the ranger that takes SS at 4th. If the fighter picks up Actor at 4th, he's behind the other fighty classes. That he now picks up one of those at 6th really doesn't help things, as the other classes have gained nice abilities to boost their combat effectiveness even more (spell slots, etc).

He could take a non-combat feat at 6th... He's alreadsy gotten his ribbon abilities around 3rd or 4th and at 6th he goes more non-combat.

The fighter stays on par if he follows along with other classes at low levels. The raw combat power of the fighter is really locked up behind 11th+ play, when extra attack becomes decisive.

I was under the impression that as long as you stick to the guidelines for an adventuring day the fighter's combat power will shine...

Which is the crux of the OP, really, and a good argument. Again, this might not bother you, but it's there. If the fighter is going to be so focuses on the combat pillar that they only get options to branch if the DM is using an optional rule (feats) and then only a little bit and late in the game, they should be clearly the best at martial fighting. They really aren't, again, until higher level. For a class focused so narrowly on a single pillar, they need to be at least half again as good at that pillar as any other class. Fighters are on par in the combat pillar - slightly behind at low levels and then slightly ahead at 11+ and finally really good at 17+. That's not remotely great. Might not be a problem for eveyone, but I can clearly see it being a problem for some.

Again I'll ask do you know where there migt be some math to back this claim up over an actual adventuring day as recommended by the rules? I just don't remember seeing this shown conclusively.

 

[Imaro]

More like...

Rogue is supposed to be the skills-focused class that focuses more on exploration/social pillars, but also gets Sneak Attack to contribute in combat. All spellcasters get combination of spells that contribute in combat as well as wide selections of spells that allow them to contribute significantly in the exploration/social pillars.

Putting aside the fact that sneak attack is situational... does this put the rogue in the same category of effectiveness in combat as a fighter? Especially when we take into account a rogue's lower hit points and armor restrictions?

Fighters class gets features that let them contribute in the combat pillar, but nothing for the exploration/social pillars. Barbarian is in a similar boat, although Danger Sense and the strength bonus/damage resistance from Range gives some limited exploration utility.

Wrong... they do, you may not like what they get or feel it's not as good as it should be but this is false.

No other class's abilities revolves so entirely around one pillar, and they all get features that explicitly allow them to contribute in all if not at first level, then very shortly therafter. The Fighter gets nothing for the first couple levels to contribute in anything but its single pillar. The unique extra option for a feat doesn't come up until 6th level.

Action surge alone increases the fighters effectiveness in non-combat situations, Remarkable Athlete, Student of War, and spells all are non-combat abilities. Claiming the fighter gets nothing is false.

 

[Hussar]

Eh... I'm a little confused here let me see if I can parse this. Are you saying that whatever the fighter can do is superseded by every other class (irregardless of what the party makeup is)... or are you saying anything the fighter can do is superseded by a specific class if said class happens to be in your party... also is this with or without feats (because IMO thsat right there is something the fighter can do that is unique, he can devote a slot to something non-combat related and still have the same number of feats as everyone else). Yes I know they are optional but more and more I'm getting the feeling that the majority of DM's allow them, though I could be wrong.

Even with feats, what is the fighter bringing to the table that no one else is? I mean, everyone gets feats. Yuppers, at 6th level, you get a whopping one more. Wow, be still my beating heart. In the first ten levels of the game, you bring one more feat than everyone else. Yup, that's going to totally make up for your complete and utter lack of anything else that someone else can bring to the table.

All the other fighter types can fight. They bring their "A" game to combat. Is anyone really going to argue that a Paladin or a Ranger or a Barbarian sucks at combat? No, of course not. They all contribute and contribute pretty darn well. But, as soon as we start talking or searching, the ranger gets tracking and spells, the paladin gets Detection and spells, the Barbarian gets FLIGHT FFS.

What does the fighter bring to social or exploration pillar that no one else can do?

 

[Imaro]

Even with feats, what is the fighter bringing to the table that no one else is? I mean, everyone gets feats. Yuppers, at 6th level, you get a whopping one more. Wow, be still my beating heart. In the first ten levels of the game, you bring one more feat than everyone else. Yup, that's going to totally make up for your complete and utter lack of anything else that someone else can bring to the table.

Unless someone else takes the exact same non-combat feat as you... that's exactly what you are bringing to the table that is unique. I mean I find it weird that a single extra feat is considered weak when the fighter gets it and yet versatile human is considered the best overall race mainly because of access to...wait for it... an extra feat...

All the other fighter types can fight. They bring their "A" game to combat. Is anyone really going to argue that a Paladin or a Ranger or a Barbarian sucks at combat? No, of course not. They all contribute and contribute pretty darn well. But, as soon as we start talking or searching, the ranger gets tracking and spells, the paladin gets Detection and spells, the Barbarian gets FLIGHT FFS.

Yeah no... I don't think a ranger (except in specialized circumstances) is on the level of a fighter in combat, same with a barbarian, the paladin on the other hand is a tougher call (I honestly believe the paladin may be a little OP'd). Of course this is assuming the adventuring day guidelines are being followed.

What does the fighter bring to social or exploration pillar that no one else can do?

Whatever he chooses for his extra feat.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Even with feats, what is the fighter bringing to the table that no one else is? I mean, everyone gets feats. Yuppers, at 6th level, you get a whopping one more. Wow, be still my beating heart. In the first ten levels of the game, you bring one more feat than everyone else. Yup, that's going to totally make up for your complete and utter lack of anything else that someone else can bring to the table.

All the other fighter types can fight. They bring their "A" game to combat. Is anyone really going to argue that a Paladin or a Ranger or a Barbarian sucks at combat? No, of course not. They all contribute and contribute pretty darn well. But, as soon as we start talking or searching, the ranger gets tracking and spells, the paladin gets Detection and spells, the Barbarian gets FLIGHT FFS.

What does the fighter bring to social or exploration pillar that no one else can do?

That one extra feat could be something like ritual caster. Which is HUGE with how much it can impact other areas of the game. You've been making this same argument for years now, repeating the same false assumptions, and people have been calling those out. For years now. I really don't expect you to stop making them; it's been the same circular argument. Feels like when politicians keep making the same false statements over and over no matter how many people tell them it's false. You seem dead set on telling everyone how horrible the fighter is and what they don't have, facts be darned.

 

[Alexemplar]

Putting aside the fact that sneak attack is situational... does this put the rogue in the same category of effectiveness in combat as a fighter? Especially when we take into account a rogue's lower hit points and armor restrictions?

It's not putting out as much raw reliable damage as the fighter, but to suggest that a Rogue doesn't contribute anything in a fight is just not true. The conditions of sneak attack include 1) Did you get advantage and 2) is an ally standing next to your foe. Not particularly difficult or uncommon standards to meet.

Wrong... they do, you may not like what they get or feel it's not as good as it should be but this is false.
Action surge alone increases the fighters effectiveness in non-combat situations, Remarkable Athlete, Student of War, and spells all are non-combat abilities. Claiming the fighter gets nothing is false.

Out of combat situations are not broken up into discrete rounds, so an extra action isn't applicable there.

I will admit, I was wrong regarding Remarkable Athlete/Student of War/Eldritch Knight spells. They get at least 1 or 2 non-combat pillar option at level 3. And that you're absolutely right in that I don't feel it's very good when by 3rd level, pretty much every other class has gotten a couple of multi-pillar options at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level.

Something at level 1 to help Fighters engage in the other pillars in the same way other classes get to would be heavily appreciated, however.

 

[Erechel]

Meanwhile... I'm the only one in my party with 2 set of tools thanks to Student of War and Folk Hero. I build my own weaponry (Smith Tools) and fortress (Carpenter's tools). If we need to repair a boat, I can. Also, you seem to forget that most interactions are made via skill + stat. Even if the character doesn't invest in feats, he is just better at level six than most other classes, just because its stats are automatically better. So a 6th level Champion has better Athletics than most characters, even the barbarian, except perhaps a specific build of rogue or bard (due to Expertise).

A fighter can peak its combat efficiency at level 6, whereas the other characters (name, the Paladin) are a little more MAD, and peak around level 12 (because they are "nuts" and they have to invest on Charisma or Wisdom, EG the pala and the ranger). Fighters are both more focused (their primary stat is only 1, presumably 2 if we count Constitution), and increase their stats more often. Arguably, this is where you are better than average classes (again, except for specific builds of bards and rogues in strength, or base rogues in dex based fighters) in Athletics or Stealth, which are much more reliable in fighters than in most classes. Furthermore, you have small benefits, such as better resistance to exhaustion and starvation (Con save - Paladins have Charisma and Wisdom saves), to suffocation (your Constitution stat is arguably better than most classes, specially if you are a dwarf), and Strength saves are the second more common in the "sweet spot levels" (see my MM and VGTM analysis). A Strength fighter is a better base jumper than anyone else, barring spells/ ki points (expendable resources). You can choose as tertiary stat anything you want: Wisdom and Charisma are arguably better than Intelligence at Exploration, depending on the game.

I think most people really underestimate the power of stats in this edition. And the less MAD a character is, the better focused it is, and the most versatile it is. It is also true that having the commonest Saves (281 counting VGTM and MM, constitution is THE most common save by far) is a lot. Athletics is the prime skill for strength fighters, and it is a awfully common skill, both in and out combat. And they are good at them faster than anyone else except (maybe) Barbarians. Yes, it is not an "auto-succeed" on most situations, but it is a steadier source of success. You are better than average thanks to your skill+stat capacities, perhaps not "the best", but certaintly better than most, without having to expend any resources.

And then, you have feats. Half feats (those that increase in 1 a stat and give ribbon or useful features) are a thing, and other feats give both combat and non-combat utilities (EG: Alert gives +5 to Initiative AND you can't be surprised, Athlete increases your strength or Dexterity, your movement is greatly increased as Prone costs only 5 feet and you climb at base speed, and you become and even better jumper).

Overall, it isn't that the fighter have "unique" features (barring the ASI and Artisan tools) to contribute, but they are steadier and sturdier, and are better than average in anything they want to. And they don't fall behind anywhere in combat, as they are a more easily focused class.

 

[Imaro]

It's not putting out as much raw reliable damage as the fighter, but to suggest that a Rogue doesn't contribute anything in a fight is just not true. The conditions of sneak attack include 1) Did you get advantage and 2) is an ally standing next to your foe. Not particularly difficult or uncommon standards to meet.

I never said he contributed nothing... and irregardless it's still a standard you have to meet, and in all honesty I've seen rogues cut off from said standards in certain combats.

Out of combat situations are not broken up into discrete rounds, so an extra action isn't applicable there.

Wait... when you climb, swim, etc... movement is halved, right? So with action surge you can move twice as far while doing one of these non-combat actions in half the time... right? In other words non-combat things still take actions and action surge grants extra actions.

I will admit, I was wrong regarding Remarkable Athlete/Student of War/Eldritch Knight spells. They get at least 1 or 2 non-combat pillar option at level 3. And that you're absolutely right in that I don't feel it's very good when by 3rd level, pretty much every other class has gotten a couple of multi-pillar options at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level.

Something at level 1 to help Fighters engage in the other pillars in the same way other classes get to would be heavily appreciated, however.

Cool, you feel how you feel. but claiming the fighter gets nothing is false.

 

[FrogReaver]

I never said he contributed nothing... and irregardless it's still a standard you have to meet, and in all honesty I've seen rogues cut off from said standards in certain combats.



Wait... when you climb, swim, etc... movement is halved, right? So with action surge you can move twice as far while doing one of these non-combat actions in half the time... right? In other words non-combat things still take actions and action surge grants extra actions.



Cool, you feel how you feel. but claiming the fighter gets nothing is false.

You: HA... I'm right because you said the fighter gets nothing and he actually get something. Na na na na...

The rest of us: Well the actual point went over that ones head...

 

[Imaro]

You: HA... I'm right because you said the fighter gets nothing and he actually get something. Na na na na...

The rest of us: Well the actual point went over that ones head...

Uhm... ok, if you say so. Or... I just don't agree with your point and there's really no arguing against someone's "feelings" about something.