D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

Uhm... ok, if you say so. Or... I just don't agree with your point and there's really no arguing against someone's "feelings" about something.

No. you are arguing semantics without addressing the underlying criticism. Anytime you pick at an all or every type word and have your post revolve around disproving the all or every then you are likely missing the point
 

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No. you are arguing semantics without addressing the underlying criticism. Anytime you pick at an all or every type word and have your post revolve around disproving the all or every then you are likely missing the point

My point, which apparently went over your head, was that the fighter does in fact have non-combat stuff... including but not limited to an extra feat. That's not semantics, it's fact.

EDIT: Whether that satisfies your personal criteria for "enough" is something that's totally subjective. So you tell me how can that be proven or disproven objectively?
 
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My point, which apparently went over your head, was that the fighter does in fact have non-combat stuff... including but not limited to an extra feat.

I gotta admit, this line of reasoning is throwing me off.

"This car sucks. It can't haul anything. I want to be able to haul my TV in it and I can't."
"Yes it does. You have the option of getting that car with a truck bed if you want. That give you plenty of room to haul your TV."
"No, you're missing the point."

Bwuh? I have a hard time seeing how pointing out something that directly addresses the complaint the person was trying to make is missing the point. That IS the point.
 

My point, which apparently went over your head, was that the fighter does in fact have non-combat stuff... including but not limited to an extra feat. That's not semantics, it's fact.

EDIT: Whether that satisfies your personal criteria for "enough" is something that's totally subjective. So you tell me how can that be proven or disproven objectively?

I think technicalities would have been a better word than semantics for me to use. Anyways. You are still stuck in that all or nothing g, he had an out of combat ability or he doesn't type of reasoning. That's useful for math proofs but not that useful here. It's a matter of degree which becomes subjective anytime you aren't comparing apples and apples. However even apples vs oranges can be so lopsided in favor of apples that while still subjective it's such a convincing case that it's people treat it as objective fact. That's where we are with fighter out of combat abilities.
 

I think technicalities would have been a better word than semantics for me to use. Anyways. You are still stuck in that all or nothing g, he had an out of combat ability or he doesn't type of reasoning. That's useful for math proofs but not that useful here. It's a matter of degree which becomes subjective anytime you aren't comparing apples and apples. However even apples vs oranges can be so lopsided in favor of apples that while still subjective it's such a convincing case that it's people treat it as objective fact. That's where we are with fighter out of combat abilities.

But that's not where we are... it hasn't been shown to be so lopsided that everyone agrees with the stance, there are plenty on both sides of the argument...
 

Uhm... ok, if you say so. Or... I just don't agree with your point and there's really no arguing against someone's "feelings" about something.

Except that you can't really talk about class design without talking about feel because that's a major contributing factor in how classes get designed.

It's why 5e classes are different from 4e classes which are differentry from 3e.

Yeah, the feeling that Fighters don't get exploration/social pillar options of the breadth and scale other classes do is just as valuable a discussion as the idea that Rangers have muddied identiry/don't perform distincrinctively enough. Or any other criticism one might have about an existing class/subclass feature.

One could dismiss all that as "Well that's just how you feel." Or "Just be happy with the option they gave," but that hardly provides a foundation for creating a workable solution.

And you can't start looking at workable solutions without first acknowledging that there's an area worth addressing.
 

Isn't that largely what the Warlock was trying to be?
Maybe the original 3.5 Warlock was trying to be a 'simple' caster, to a degree, but mainly it was an at-will caster, it was still more complicated than even a 3.x fighter (though that wasn't the simplest class in 3.x, either, that'd probably have been the Barbarian).

The closest D&D has ever come to a 'simple caster' was probably the HotEC Elemental Sorcerer.

Fighters class gets features that let them contribute in the combat pillar, but nothing for the exploration/social pillars. Barbarian is in a similar boat, although Danger Sense and the strength bonus/damage resistance from Range gives some limited exploration utility.
The Barbarian's every bit as bad off - Raging for a minor OOC advantage is at least as bad as Action Surging to save six seconds in some OOC task.

No other class's abilities revolves so entirely around one pillar, and they all get features that explicitly allow them to contribute in all if not at first level, then very shortly therafter. The Fighter gets nothing for the first couple levels to contribute in anything but its single pillar. The unique extra option for a feat doesn't come up until 6th level.
And it's not unique, everyone gets a feat at 4th, it's just doubling up on that, so the fighter gets the second-best feat two levels early...

All the other fighter types can fight. They bring their "A" game to combat. Is anyone really going to argue that a Paladin or a Ranger or a Barbarian sucks at combat? No, of course not. They all contribute and contribute pretty darn well. But, as soon as we start talking or searching, the ranger gets tracking and spells, the paladin gets Detection and spells, the Barbarian gets FLIGHT FFS.
I think we need to exclude magic that occurs in only one sub-class. The Berserker's every bit as hosed as the Champion and BM.

What does the fighter bring to social or exploration pillar that no one else can do?
That /no one else/ can do? Technically, nothing. But, then, that's technically true of most classes. The Rogue's Expertise, for instance, is not unique, a Bard sub-class also gets it.

Now, there's very little the fighter brings to the other two pillars that /absolutely every other class/ can't also bring. Feats, for instance, anyone can take 'em. Backgrounds, everyone has one. Second Wind? Primarily a combat ability, but lots of classes can heal themselves (and others). Action Surge? Primarily a combat ability, but out of combat can be used to take an extra run action in a sprint or something... the Rogue can get to take an extra action every round, and then there's haste...

The fighter really does define a sort of baseline for the game, what the fighter can do, everyone can do, what each of them do better or worse or in addition that defines the other classes.

It's not putting out as much raw reliable damage as the fighter, but to suggest that a Rogue doesn't contribute anything in a fight is just not true.
The point isn't contributing /anything/. A bog-standard Kobold can contribute to any party, at any level. It can make an untrained skill check or toss a dagger or something, and might roll well. All you need to contribute in any pillar under BA is a warm body - heck, with reptiles and undead and whatnot, it needn't even be warm. That bar is laying on the ground.

The rogue's SA and other combat-applicable features let it contribute significantly more, in combat, than some warm-body with a knife - even a warm body with the same, level, DEX & proficiency. That's pretty meaningful, even if it's not up to the DPR of a Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin or Warlock, nor the durability of a Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or Druid.

Out of combat situations are not broken up into discrete rounds, so an extra action isn't applicable there.
It could be in a very specific time-contested task, like a foot race, or raising a portcullis and reaching a lever before the princess is sawed in half or something or something...

I will admit, I was wrong regarding Remarkable Athlete/Student of War/Eldritch Knight spells. They get at least 1 or 2 non-combat pillar option at level 3. And that you're absolutely right in that I don't feel it's very good when by 3rd level, pretty much every other class has gotten a couple of multi-pillar options at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level.
Keep in mind that the EK's spells are limited to Evocation & Abjuration, at first...

Something at level 1 to help Fighters engage in the other pillars in the same way other classes get to would be heavily appreciated, however.
That'd mostly be in the area of versatility. The fighter is too generic to suggest an OOC specialty like the Ranger's general woodsiness, so it'd have to be some alternate-use sort of thing. Expending an Action Surge or Second Wind for some out-of-combat benefit, for instance.

No. you are arguing semantics without addressing the underlying criticism. Anytime you pick at an all or every type word and have your post revolve around disproving the all or every then you are likely missing the point
It's an internet reflex, like a Newtonian equal-and-opposite-reaction. We're shouting into a pretty big not-quite-void, here, so any absolute statement is going to fall on at least one forumite who can come up with at least one counter-example. And the temptation to be absolutely right in pedantically correcting some other random anonymous poster on the internet seems dreadfully hard to resist. It's really more surprising that you only get one or few such responses, rather than dozens - I guess the thrill wears thin quickly once you have some company...

Even if you're careful to load every post with weasel words, you're likely to get that kind of gleeful 'disproof' now and then.

Ultimately, I guess it says more about the medium than the points being raised.
 
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I think technicalities would have been a better word than semantics for me to use. Anyways. You are still stuck in that all or nothing g, he had an out of combat ability or he doesn't type of reasoning. That's useful for math proofs but not that useful here. It's a matter of degree which becomes subjective anytime you aren't comparing apples and apples. However even apples vs oranges can be so lopsided in favor of apples that while still subjective it's such a convincing case that it's people treat it as objective fact. That's where we are with fighter out of combat abilities.

My point was that the fighter does not get the number of or power of non combat options the other classes get. And that classes that do get those abilities don't really give up that much in the combat department.

Basically that other classes get features to excel at exploration/social pillars but none of them could be described as bad in combat because they get many combat options - many are quite good, even excel- while Fighters excel in combat but can't really be said to be good in any particular exploration/social encounters.

The raw quantitative number of features is not the entirety of the point. My mistake was not the fact that Fighters get fewer/less potent options, but overlooking the number by one which still doesn't give them as many options or as powerful options.
 

You keep missing the point though.

It's not that the fighter can't contribute. That's obvious that a fighter can. It's that the fighter class brings absolutely nothing to the table in those two pillars. EVERY other class brings something to the table. Whether it's spells or skill bonuses, or abilities, EVERY SINGLE CLASS, other than fighters brings something unique to the situation that no other class can.

Fighters, OTOH, bring NOTHING to the table that you can't get from another class. Even the fighting isn't really any better than another class.

Can you participate? Sure, that's not in question. The question is, what are you bringing to the table in that participation that any other class cannot and likely cannot do better than you can?
What says you should get such features?

You're phrasing the question in a way that deliberately sets you up for disappointment.

Why not instead focus on the fact you apparently do agree with me the Fighter CAN contribute meaningfully to social and exploration, with access to skills in way unheard of in the "fighting man" days of yore?

The question is instead why you focus on something the fighter has never had and probably never will?

The hard cold truth is that for many gamers social and exploration are sideshows; distant seconds to the combat pillar. Having at least one class with zero focus on those two pillars attract a certain kind of player that only want to bash monster brains. Having a class for them is a net positive for the game, even if I understand that is light years away from how you're approaching the game.

About the "even the fighting isn't any better" - combat is the central feature of this game, and that every class can meaningfully contribute is a huge plus. Please don't tell me you want to return to the bad old days where you could build a character completely unsuitable for the central activity of the game...

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And, to be perfectly fair, it's not like the fighter is a real standout in the combat arena, either -- they hang, and at very high levels exceed, but if you're not playing to 17th, it's just not that apparent.
I am having trouble understanding you. At least unless you're truly arguing the fighter is weak except at levels 17+

...In which case I'm completely baffled. At low levels martials are significantly sturdier than casters. With feats, it's not even a contest.
(Martials, not just Fighters)

But level 17 is the level where the Wizard gets her level 9 spell; if not before, that is the spot where they leave martials behind for good.


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