The funny thing about paladins of wee jas...

Psion said:
AFAIAC (and repeating myself modestly), an intelligent person should realize that stirring in all real world belief systems into a fantasy milieu and assuming that they are all somehow true will result in a cosmology and theory of magic that is at the very least convoluted, and without care and filtering, fundamentally inconsistent as well.

Does anyone else read the above text and immediately think it would make a ridiculously awesome character (or even campaign) concept?

The old wizard looks around with his mighty intellect at all the varied magical theories, proofs, prayers, insignia, etc of the varied 'disciplines' of magic.

Then he immediately sets out (or hires adventurers) to discover the GRAND UNIFIED THEORY OF MAGIC. Proving once and for all the simple, correct method to access magical power.
 

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Particle_Man said:
According to Tomb of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, you can have Paladins of Wee Jas.

OK.

Interestingly, one could have a Paladin of Wee Jas fall from grace and become a LE ex-paladin/blackguard, without even once wavering in his loyalty to Wee Jas. I'm not sure the goddess would even be that bothered about the shift in alignment.


I must have missed the reference to paladins of Wee Jas in Tome of Battle. I know that the Ruby Knight Vindicators worship her, but paladins?
 

Rather, because the cosmology of the setting informs my campaign design decisions, and once crafted and set into motion, the rules by which the cosmology operate becomes a source for plentiful adventure ideas and background flavor.

Sort of like the role cosmology plays for me when running Planescape.

So, then, it's really just the old outside-in vs. inside-out campaign design conflict.

I have the events in my adventures happen, and then create a context from those events to describe how and why those events came to take place. Like, I'll decide I want a necromancer-king, because undead are cool, and I'll figure out why there would be a necromancer-king with armies of undead, and take it from there. In PS, I would decide I want to run the PC's to Ysgard, think of a reason, a motive, and run it from there.

I have people who cast CLW in a million different ways, because I'm a huge fan of variety and options (the whole "a place for everything" idea). So it's on me to create a context wherein this can occur.

That doesn't involve any less thought or development than your way, and it's not inherently more bizzarre or convoluted. I can see that our styles don't nessecarily mesh well, but I can still see the logic in your design, and I'd hope you can see the logic in the way I (and, it seems, the RAW) did things.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
The paladin doesn't channel the divine power of a deity, but rather the power of all Lawful Goodness. If there are those who worship Wee Jas who are Lawful Good, a Lawful Good paladin devoted to wee jas can draw on the power of those aspects of Wee Jas that are Lawful and Good.

By the RAW, the paladin isn't so much the tool of his deity's whim as he is a tool of LG's whim, who may pay homage to a deity with which he feels sympathy...which can include the LG parts of an LN deity like Wee Jas.

All of what you said is wrong...in my game. ;)
 

mhacdebhandia said:
Something more like moving between sects in a real-world faith; like being raised as a Baptist but ending up as a Catholic . . . not to imply that Baptists are paladins and Catholics necromancers! :uhoh:

My life would be so much cooler if we were taught necromancy in CCD. I guess I'll have to settle for having someone who rose from the dead for a deity. :)
 

Particle_Man said:
Interestingly, one could have a Paladin of Wee Jas fall from grace and become a LE ex-paladin/blackguard, without even once wavering in his loyalty to Wee Jas. I'm not sure the goddess would even be that bothered about the shift in alignment.

AFAIK
> a paladin can't knowingly associate with evil
> Wee Jas knowingly associates with evil (1/3 of her worshippers)
> Lawful organizations can issue edicts and command loyalty to the highest degree. Paladins could theoretically be issued orders by Lawful Evil people in their faith and be expected (by the Lawful component, and their membership in the church) to follow the orders. Then again, they can refuse and lose their paladin-hood as a result of not following "legitimate authority", unless a Lawful Evil member of the Church of Wee Jas is not a legitimate authority.

I find it clumsy and unrealistic that a religion of any kind, that has ANY sort of opinion on morality/ethical issues, doesn't have an opinion on ALL morality/ethical issues. Meaning that I don't think it really works to allow more than one alignment for a faith that has a moral/ethical component.
 

Shazman said:
I must have missed the reference to paladins of Wee Jas in Tome of Battle. I know that the Ruby Knight Vindicators worship her, but paladins?
"Due to the entry requirements, most Ruby Knights are multiclass crusader/clerics of paladins..."
 

gizmo33 said:
AFAIK
> a paladin can't knowingly associate with evil
> Wee Jas knowingly associates with evil (1/3 of her worshippers)
> Lawful organizations can issue edicts and command loyalty to the highest degree. Paladins could theoretically be issued orders by Lawful Evil people in their faith and be expected (by the Lawful component, and their membership in the church) to follow the orders. Then again, they can refuse and lose their paladin-hood as a result of not following "legitimate authority", unless a Lawful Evil member of the Church of Wee Jas is not a legitimate authority.

That only matters if you regard the Church of Wee Jas as a monolithic entity that has codified laws and restrictions. Besides, any church can have evil members, not all members of a church must be clerics. (This is leaving out Eberron's rules of a cleric not having to be the right alignment anyway.)
 

GwydapLlew said:
Adapt the deathless template to Sueloise undead created by the Jasidan clergy, and you could even adventure with them! :]

Please don't. I like Wee Jas, I like this idea of a paladin of Wee Jas, but I really dislike deathless. Let a Blackguard of Wee Jas adventure with proper undead, or have an undead like Nick Knight or Angel hang out with the paladin.
 

gizmo33 said:
AFAIK
> a paladin can't knowingly associate with evil
> Wee Jas knowingly associates with evil (1/3 of her worshippers)
> Lawful organizations can issue edicts and command loyalty to the highest degree.

Your math is fuzzy. It's more accurate to say that 50 - 60% of Jasidan clerics are LN, with 20-30% being LE, and the remainder being LG.


gizmo33 said:
Paladins could theoretically be issued orders by Lawful Evil people in their faith and be expected (by the Lawful component, and their membership in the church) to follow the orders. Then again, they can refuse and lose their paladin-hood as a result of not following "legitimate authority", unless a Lawful Evil member of the Church of Wee Jas is not a legitimate authority.

You are correct. Taking orders from a LE character however, only violates the paladin's code if the paladin commits an evil act or willingly associates with an evil character. Paladins of Wee Jas would not be found serving under a LE high priest, and I doubt that the LN majority would find it amusing to deal with the constant issues that would arise from assigning a paladin to such a church.

gizmo33 said:
I find it clumsy and unrealistic that a religion of any kind, that has ANY sort of opinion on morality/ethical issues, doesn't have an opinion on ALL morality/ethical issues. Meaning that I don't think it really works to allow more than one alignment for a faith that has a moral/ethical component.

That's your opinion, but it's not supported by the rules for clerics in D&D. Per the PHB, all religions follow a one-step rule with the exception of St. Cuthbert. A LG deity can have a NG follower - that obviously would cause conflict when the NG cleric disobeys orders 'to do what is right.'
 

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