The funny thing about paladins of wee jas...

[Particle_Man]

Nope. They'll always have the evil subtype, just for being undead. It oculd even be argued that the paladin is forced to destroy this obviously evil thing, and even if not, they may not associate with it.

That is simply false. Mummies do not have the evil subtype, Ghosts do not have the evil subtype, and undead do not automatically have the evil subtype. Evil as subtype is a special term in D&D and goes well beyond merely having an evil alignment. Evil as subtype is something you apply to demons, for example.

In theory one could have a ghost that has neither the evil alignment nor the evil subtype. I guess one could have a non-evil mummy, but a that would be more rare. In any case, it would not have the evil subtype.

 

[Psion]

I'll amend the above statement.

It boggles me when people are very narrow in their definition of how magical hocus-pocus is generated.

I don't think I am all that demanding. All I ask is that the meaning of the different types of magic be fairly straightforward, consistent, and distinctive from one another.

I see using the same sort of magic to represent the power granted by polytheistic deities to represent personal conviction as being less consistant, and partially treading on the concept of psionics.

Not to mention the semi-supernatural effects like a monk's that are generated by training or adherence to a discipline.

Would it surprise you to know I consider ki to be psi-like abilities?

Throw in AE -- ritual magic, channeling energy, the power of writing...

Why is it difficult to envision all these existing alongside each other?

Because of the lack of consistency and lack of distinction in the morass so created.

Have I also mentioned I am not entertaining admitting new magic systems to my game lest they fit in my schema?

I mean, in the real world, people think they gain supernatural power in these ways and more.

In the real world, personal belief systems in magic and other supernatural phenomona are not required to be consistent with one another. Indeed, most presuppose that all others are incorrect.

But when building a campaign where magic actually operates, my standards are more stringent than just what anyone can happen to believe.

Any old commoner in my game world can believe that his morning rituals or scented candle burning or whatever impact his life, but the reality is that unless he utilizes one of the existing magic system in the milieu, his beliefs and practices have no meaning to the cosmos at large.

"The power of will" has to be psionics?

IMC, yes.

It can't also be divine magic?

IMC, no.

Or, to make it both is dumb?

You can play a psychic theurge if you like. Or if you want a person who derives power from personal philosophy, the Ardent class has your name on it. But you won't be a cleric in my campaign unless your draw power from alignment with (contemplating mysteries of/communig with) a given divine force or being.

Nah, I don't buy it.

The feeling is mutual.

 

[Psion]

I'd point out, re: confusion over Psion's point, that it started with Psion's statement that 'so many stupid rules.'

Your point? I do consider the idea of divine magic with no notion or connection to the divine to be self-contradictory and, well, stupid. That is why I run my campaign the way I do. And believe that the 3e rules were wrong to deviate from prior standards on this point.

Just like some people think a campaign with killable gods is stupid. They have the right to run their campaign accordingly, and I don't agree with them.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Frankly, I fail to see how a culture like that of the D&D drow could exist at all. The problem is less with their alignment and physiology, though, and more to do with simple resource generation. Without the sun, how exactly do their raise sufficient crops to feed all the drow, never mind their huge stables of slaves?

They eat the creatures of the underdark, as well as mushrooms. Big mushrooms.

That is simply false.

Right. They still detect as evil, and undeath is considered to be inherently evil, mockery of life and nature, all that.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yep, pretty sure. Araushnee was originally a spider goddess, patron of the arts and the elven deity of destiny. Corellon assigned her as the goddess of the ilythiiri after he noticed their resembelence (dark skin, etc).

That was back when she was all happiness and light, though. Then there's the whole corruption, siding with the deities of fury, casting out, Crown Wars thing - but that's later.

Isn't this just the FR version of the story, or has it now taken over "general" canon?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Basically, a paladin of Wee Jas won't associate with a percentage of the clergy. Knowing some are evil, would he be CONSTANTLY be using his power to detect evil while at the temple?

I would posit that different congregations will have a different alignment balance. I can easily imagine temples where the vast majority of worshippers and clergy are LN or some where the vast majority are actually evil. Obviously a Paladin of Wee Jas would come from a neutral or even the rare good congregations.

Until someone says they have giant legions of Wee Jas paladins on the march, I don't think it's a big issue. Indeed, a Wee Jas paladin might have a (pardon the expression) rosy view of what the faithful are like that doesn't really match up with the reality, when the big picture is considered.

 

[delericho]

They eat the creatures of the underdark, as well as mushrooms. Big mushrooms.

Yeah, but that assumes a functional ecology in the underdark, and I don't see how that could come about, either. There aren't many plants will grow in the absence of the sun, even in a magical realm, and without vegetable matter you don't get the herbivores for the carnivores to eat, so you don't get the carnivores, and can't get to the Drow.

Of course, I'm well aware that trying to apply any notion of real-world science to a fantasy world is an exercise in futility. It just seems to me that the Drow would have to expend so much magic on the mere process of just existing that it wouldn't allow them any time to get on with anything else.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Yeah, but that assumes a functional ecology in the underdark, and I don't see how that could come about, either. There aren't many plants will grow in the absence of the sun, even in a magical realm

Do you have proof? Show me one magical realm that isn't abundand with underground flora and fauna!

Of course, I'm well aware that trying to apply any notion of real-world science to a fantasy world is an exercise in futility.

Oh yeah! Once people can throw fire and lightning without flamethrowers and tazers, real-world science is silenced.

It just seems to me that the Drow would have to expend so much magic on the mere process of just existing that it wouldn't allow them any time to get on with anything else.

A couple of low-level spells here and there? Doesn't seem like much of a problem. They don't have their favoured classes for nothing!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah, low level cleric spells to feed the masses isn't that hard, especially in a powerfully theocratic society. (In fact, that might be a good hook for an Ecology of the Drow-type thing: The drow are theocratic because they have to be, in large part.)

 

[Vocenoctum]

I would posit that different congregations will have a different alignment balance. I can easily imagine temples where the vast majority of worshippers and clergy are LN or some where the vast majority are actually evil. Obviously a Paladin of Wee Jas would come from a neutral or even the rare good congregations.

I think society at large plays a part as well. In general the LN clerics will be the most commonly met Wee Jasians, they would be the ones preparing funerals and taking care of graveyards. The LG members would be out there helping people, perhaps consoling grieving relatives, or campaigning against undead. The LE members would be more secretive, trying to gain power without being discovered.

It'd be easy enough to see a LG Paladin of Wee Jas that considers the LE members to be abberations against the church, even if Wee Jas herself doesn't descend from the Outer Planes and smite them. A Blackguard of Wee Jas could simply embrace the power she represents while abandoning the good deeds he used to promote.

It's also easy enough to see LG members of the church of Wee Jas fighting LE members in order to cleanse the church of their corruption. So long as it doesn't weaken the church of violate basic edicts. Also note, a LE type is more likely to bend/break a precept of the faith than a LG one.