The funny thing about paladins of wee jas...

[Flexor the Mighty!]

What does this mean? A paladin of Wee Jas is legal by RAW. Nothing in the paladin's code states that they would find a goddess who determines where people goes when they die (and does not allow the creation of Sueloise undead without permission) abhorrent - the church of Kelemvor in FR has many paladins among its ranks, and he is a LN death deity. The paladins restriction states that they will not knowingly associate with evil characters, which means that they will generally only be found in churches of Wee Jas that are controlled by the LN (the majority) or LG (significant minority) portion of the Jasidan faith.

I just don't see a problem with it. Wee Jas isn't Nerull. She's not an eeeeeeeeeevil goddess who kills with abandon - she's the goddess who makes sure that those who die go where they belong in the afterlife.

The idea of a holy warrior of law and good paying homage to a deity that grants power for others to do evil and wickedness makes no sense to me. I can see run of the mill followers being of different alignments, but one who channels the divine power of that deity not even having the same basic belief structure doesn't really do it for me. For me this is one of the areas that the RAW don't seem to make much sense.

 

[Sejs]

Sejs goes waaaay off the paladin-related topic

It does boggle me every time people can't or don't wrap their heads around godless clerics or divine magic powered by will and not by some personality. Maybe I've got too much Planescape in me, where simple conviction can empower some supernatural stuff in otherwise non-magical PC's.

IMC the way I handle it is that prepared divine spellcasting is something you learn. It's a very emotive, conviction-based sort of art, but it's still something that you do by doing. You're taught by a terrestrial agency, usually a church or some kind of mentor, and even down to the domains you picked (related to the ethos you were 'brought up' in), the magic all happens with you. God doesn't pop down and tell you "here ya go, buddy, have some spells", even if your particular faith's dogma says otherwise.

For similar reasons, your deith does not actually have divine veto powers when it come to off-alignment spells, but most clerics either choose not to as it's against their faith, or exhibit a mental block, such that they're hamstringing themselves.

Now on the other hand, spontaneous divine spellcasters - that is, the Favored Soul - is the flip side of that particular coin. As a FS your magic IS a direct gift from your god. It's not something you do by doing, it's something you do by being. Unlike the cleric, a deity does have a veto on what they grant to the FS; they just say 'no you can't have that' if a particular spell is vastly against their nature. In the end it equates to the same thing: good priests don't cast evil spells, but they take two different roads to get there.

It also goes a good way, in my mind at least, to reconcile the Int vs Wis vs Cha divide with regard to spellcasting method and source.

Int-based spellcasting is generally something you learn studiously. Wizards cast spells by memorizing arcane formulae. Archivists stand astride Int and Wis by working to understand divine magic by means of intellectual disection. Warmages bridge Int and Cha in similar fashion.

Wis-based spellcasting is generally emotive. You know the prayers and rituals and you believe with all your heart, and that willpower guts the magic into happening in the way you know it should. Druids and Clerics cast spells by honest-to-god believing in what they preach. Favored Souls straddle Wis and Cha being equal parts devotion and imbued divine spark.

Cha-based spellcasting is generally something you are. You nurture a particular innate something, opening yourself to the intrinsic magical flow of whatever and shape it as it passes through you, magic being the result. Sorcerers use themselves as a lens for native, inborn abilities to channel mana, be it from distant herritage (draconic or otherwise), or more mysterious means. Bards let their songs direct and influence magic in a similar fashion; they don't have to sing the same song every time they cast Cure Light Wounds, but they just gotta sing because that's their schtick. Warmages, etc I mostly see as a sort of specialized Sorcerer - focusing native abilities, but in a particular fashion such that their knack develops in a particular way.

It's not a perfect system, I'll admit, but it's more a broad idea than a hard 'X must equal Y'.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I agree. I wouldn't allow this in my Greyhawk game. I would require a Paladin to worship a LG god myself. Worshiping a LN deity seems a bit dodgy for a LG holy warrior.

It always depends on the deity, I'd say. Look at Kelemvor, for example, the Realms' god of death. He's LN (as he thinks that he must be impartial - death must come to everyone eventually, be they sinners or saints). He does have lawful evil clerics (but they still channel positive energy, as Kelemvor is against undead), who will be heartless bastards but still follow his code. And paladins of Kelemvor make perfect sense: They go and destroy undead, help others so they don't die before their time, give comfort to those left behind (or those about to go), and all that.

The one-step rule says that you don't have to completely agree with your deity's alignment - you must may not be against any of his tenets (like an evil priest of a good deity). Paladins of LN deities believe in order, which is what their deity represents, but they also fight for good (which doesn't bother the deity too much, as long as they fight by the rules)

Paladin of Slaughter from UA?

That's not the kind of paladin we're talking about here. It's a variant, I'm pretty sure this thread talks about the core paladin - the one who must be LG. "Paladin of Honour" if you will.

(...and since when is Lolth called Chaos Incarnate?

The Realms' Lolth certainly calls herself that.

Spiders don't seem particularly chaotic

She's not only the spider goddess, she's also the main (and, if you listen to her, only) goddess of the drow.

let alone drow society with its zany house heirarchy.

Which is a mockery of order. It's pure survival of the strongest. She does not only tolerate infighting, she actively encourages it. They have "laws", yes, but they're a joke. It is forbidden to make war upon another house, but if you do it right and leave no witnesses (which means only noble members of the house, since the others don't have the right to accuse their attackers, even if they cared), it won't be pursued. In fact, everyone will know it was you, and they'll silently congratulate you for doing it right. Most suriving commoners of that house will just join your ranks - they don't give a damn who leads them.

Such attacks usually follow a family's falling from grace. And that family is always the last to know that Lolth no longer favours them.

Even family members regularly kill each other. There might be laws, but they're a facade.

Heck, you could even have a (non-evil) undead cohort. Ghosts and Mummies can specifically be good. Now that would be something to see.

Nope. They'll always have the evil subtype, just for being undead. It oculd even be argued that the paladin is forced to destroy this obviously evil thing, and even if not, they may not associate with it.

I believe that rule is a setting rule, not a general one.

Yes, I know. Read his post again, note that he talks about the FR, which is why I didn't answer with general rules.

And even if it were, you could still be a LG paladin of no particular deity and offer prayers to whomever.

Since he spoke about the FR, you couldn't. In the Realms, all divine magic (even that of druids and rangers) must come from an actual deity.

Of course, the general rules, as written in the core books, says that you can be a divine caster (even a priest) of an ideal or concept rather than a deity. Not everyone uses that rule (the Realms don't), but generally, it can make sense.

 

[Sejs]

That's not the kind of paladin we're talking about here. It's a variant, I'm pretty sure this thread talks about the core paladin - the one who must be LG. "Paladin of Honour" if you will.

*nod* Granted. True enough, that.

The Realms' Lolth certainly calls herself that.

I was curious so I checked my copy of F&P, couldn't find anything of the sort - titlewise, anyway. Plenty of capricious behavior mentioned, much to the tune of a divine version of "I am a complete hosebag", but not much else. Little help?

She's not only the spider goddess, she's also the main (and, if you listen to her, only) goddess of the drow.

Right, but she was a spider goddess before Corellon came along and told her "Hey wait a sec, 'Shnee. The ilythiiri sorta look like you, right? Shazam! You're now their patron goddess. You go, girl!" though.

There might be laws, but they're a facade.

I don't know. The whole thing kinda strikes me as just a tad on the lawful side. Abusing imposed order for your own ends, hypocritically swinging the 'I can break the rules if I don't get caught, but if you get caught you're screwed' knife around. Textbook lawful evil stuff.

Then again, I could be projecting my own bias. The idea of a LE drow society did always strike me as the more fearsome (and appropriately opposite to the norm of regularly CG surface elves) approach. A race that breeds as slowly as elves can't function with a brutal, hyperviolent society, particularly in a dangerous environment like the underdark. They'd wipe themselves out. As-is, their alignment and culture's writing cheques their physiology can't cash.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I was curious so I checked my copy of F&P, couldn't find anything of the sort - titlewise, anyway. Plenty of capricious behavior mentioned, much to the tune of a divine version of "I am a complete hosebag", but not much else. Little help?

Check any FR-Novel where Lolth worshippers (or Lolth herself) is mentioned.

Right, but she was a spider goddess before Corellon came along and told her "Hey wait a sec, 'Shnee. The ilythiiri sorta look like you, right? Shazam! You're now their patron goddess. You go, girl!" though.

Are you sure? The way I remember it she was Corellon's consort and sort-of-mother of all dark elves first, and only later developed her weird spider fetish along with other negative traits

I don't know. The whole thing kinda strikes me as just a tad on the lawful side. Abusing imposed order for your own ends, hypocritically swinging the 'I can break the rules if I don't get caught, but if you get caught you're screwed' knife around. Textbook lawful evil stuff.

I wouldn't say that's LE. LE will bend the rules. LE will use every loophole. They will try to change the rules in their favour. But they won't break them.

I guess it can be seen either way.

Then again, I could be projecting my own bias. The idea of a LE drow society did always strike me as the more fearsome (and appropriately opposite to the norm of regularly CG surface elves) approach. A race that breeds as slowly as elves can't function with a brutal, hyperviolent society, particularly in a dangerous environment like the underdark. They'd wipe themselves out. As-is, their alignment and culture's writing cheques their physiology can't cash.

Dark elves don't seem to be as slow-breeding as other elves. They often have a dozen children (because more children means more power). They often act quicker then elves, too. And their vicious streak keeps them in check: If they didn't fight among themselves regularly, they'd probably have conquered the Night Below long ago, and might even be a major force on the surface.

The infighting can become a problem, though. That's why they regularly clash with their neighbours or other targets, for in the face of the hated "lesser" races (i.e. everything not drow), they will band together and crush them. So the rulers have to keep showing them external threats before they tear each other apart.

 

[delericho]

IMC, Paladins are not required to have a patron deity. In fact, they are encouraged to not. However, if a Paladin were to pay more than lip service to any deity, then that deity would have to be within one step of LG. Anything more would be a bit too jarring.

Conversely, I do require Clerics to have a patron deity (which is explicitly a deviation from RAW, I know). Depending on the nature of the campaign, they may or may not be required to be within one step of their deity (most often, they are).

And I agree: the notion of a Paladin of Wee Jas is pretty cool. The notion of an ex-Paladin now-Blackguard who all the while remained faithful to Wee Jas is even cooler. And the notion of the ex-Blackguard now-Paladin of Wee Jas?

 

[delericho]

A race that breeds as slowly as elves can't function with a brutal, hyperviolent society, particularly in a dangerous environment like the underdark. They'd wipe themselves out. As-is, their alignment and culture's writing cheques their physiology can't cash.

Frankly, I fail to see how a culture like that of the D&D drow could exist at all. The problem is less with their alignment and physiology, though, and more to do with simple resource generation. Without the sun, how exactly do their raise sufficient crops to feed all the drow, never mind their huge stables of slaves?

The answer, of course, is that it's fantasy and doesn't need to make sense, but once you've gone that far, surely questions of how a CE society can exist without wiping themselves out become less pressing?

 

[lukelightning]

Heck, you could even have a (non-evil) undead cohort. Ghosts and Mummies can specifically be good. Now that would be something to see.

Ghosts yes. Mummies, as per the Monster Manual, are "usually lawful evil" but I would say they are pretty much always evil. "Mummies are preserved corpses animated through the auspices of dark desert gods best forgotten."

 

[Will]

I'd point out, re: confusion over Psion's point, that it started with Psion's statement that 'so many stupid rules.'

IE: He was dismissive of 'paladin of anything, cleric of concepts.'

The 'well, this is how I run things in my campaign' only cropped up as a defense afters.

 

[Sejs]

Are you sure? The way I remember it she was Corellon's consort and sort-of-mother of all dark elves first, and only later developed her weird spider fetish along with other negative traits

Yep, pretty sure. Araushnee was originally a spider goddess, patron of the arts and the elven deity of destiny. Corellon assigned her as the goddess of the ilythiiri after he noticed their resembelence (dark skin, etc).

That was back when she was all happiness and light, though. Then there's the whole corruption, siding with the deities of fury, casting out, Crown Wars thing - but that's later.