The Game for Non-Gamers: (Forked from: Sexism in D&D)

Depends on who I am.

Firefighter(or EMT or police)--bash the door open
Locksmith--pick the lock
Burglar--any of the above, or look for a key
Military--Explosives!
Pizza Deliverer--Doorbell
Student--Look for the RA
Homeowner--could be look for the key, could be the window, could be...
Bank Employee--find the Manager

Circumstances, both on the player's part, and on the description of the door given by the GM, much like the circumstances in real life. Which is a fine point, but I'm not sure if that's what you were meaning to say...

Taking this together, the part where you play your character is consider what skill you use.

The conflict is: "I want to get through that closed door."
The roleplaying part is finding the solution to do that. Multiple skills can help you. Maybe you can threaten someone to open it for you (if there is someone that can do it.) In that case, you would use Intimidate.
They key might be around, so you would use Perception. Or you decide to pick the lock, then you would use Thievery.
The conflict can be resolved with either skill. But it might create an aftereffect. If you haven't found the key, the next door might also need lock-picking. If you have forced the guy with the key to help you, he might still be around for the next time, or his attitude towards you might be different then before.

There is some similarity in how you deal with combat encounters. No matter whether you cast spells or swing your sword, if you were successful, you win. If you use your daily Fireball in the conflict, it is gone for the next one until you recover.

Another scenario - a high society dinner, perhaps - can have similar consequences. You are there to make an impression so that people see you as a force to be reckoned with. If you mostly use Diplomacy, people generally like you and you might convince them of some of your goals. If you use Intimidate, they might have more respect (but you will make some enemies, but if you are interested in a few particular people, that might still be better.) If you use Arcana or History, you come off as a wise man that might have useful advice. If you use Bluff, people will get the impression you want them to have, and might deceive your enemies - but if it ever comes out that you lied, you might lose friends. If you use Insight, you won't be particularly noticed, but when you meet any of these people again, you will be able to manipulate them better and anticipate their reactions.
 

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Another scenario - a high society dinner, perhaps - can have similar consequences. You are there to make an impression so that people see you as a force to be reckoned with. If you mostly use Diplomacy, people generally like you and you might convince them of some of your goals. If you use Intimidate, they might have more respect (but you will make some enemies, but if you are interested in a few particular people, that might still be better.) If you use Arcana or History, you come off as a wise man that might have useful advice. If you use Bluff, people will get the impression you want them to have, and might deceive your enemies - but if it ever comes out that you lied, you might lose friends. If you use Insight, you won't be particularly noticed, but when you meet any of these people again, you will be able to manipulate them better and anticipate their reactions.
And I think the argument for not having mechanics is if you do this the thing turns into a game of "pick the mechanic".

And the counter-argument is "that's what the whole game amounts to anyway".

And the counter-counter-argument is (I think) "except that the interactions of real people are much more complex" and possibly "so you could have a much more diverse and ultimately satisfying game".

And then the next counter is "but some people are just no good at playing that game and would do better with the 'pick the mechanic' format".

I realize that I may be making some generalities and/or reading things into what people have said that they may not actually be saying, but I think this discussion back-and-forth could do with a concise summary of what the main points on each side are in the hopes that it clears something up for someone. It certainly helps me. :)
 

I'll give my opinion on this matter. For what it is worth. We gave up die rolling a long time ago for the most part. We use Describe and Demonstrate. If you can describe it accurately or well, then that's good enough, if you can't then you can demonstrate it if speaking is not your thing or you prefer to empirically demonstrate what you are doing. Some people prefer to show rather than describe, or to mix methods, combing both techniques.

At any time a player can choose to use the dice in a given situation (or some method other than the dice, we use a few, and some situations require the dice or some other method because such situations can't really be emulated in real life), but they have to then live with the results and therefore rarely choose to do so. Because it is entirely possible in most circumstances to have absolute control over your own actions, but there is very little chance to have much control over a random technique, like a die roll. That is simply an indisputable fact. You can control yourself and command your own actions, you cannot control the dice or command them.

I suggest this though. As an experimental technique.

Take any given situation where you (the character) are able to act and that can be resolved either by human action and/or thought, or by die roll. Then play that situation out several times using both methods, absolute role play and human problem solving techniques, versus rolling dice. Then decide for yourself which method, on average yields both the most innovative and the most consistently successful results to address whatever problem is described by the situation. (I will say this though, role playing most things requires a different kind of DM than a fella who resolves every situation by die roll, because in the case of the player handling his own problem solving it is the player who has great control over most situations and not the DM. Therefore as they get good at it expect a lot of real innovation on the part of your players, both tactically during the adventure, and strategically during the campaign or within the general setting. Thinking and role play inspires more and more innovation and creativity on the part of the player, and as a DM you just gotta expect that as a rule of operations.)

I don't think you'll have to conduct this experiment often to reach both a deductive and a statistical conclusion as to which yields the overall best results.

Now as I said it is not always possible to resolve every in-game situation without some resort to chance. But try that experiment and see which is not only the most successful method but also which is, generally speaking, the most fun for your players. I personally have never seen a player who once he realizes he can exercise his own problem solving skills and abilities to resolve a situation does not then suddenly become more and more eager to excel in doing so.

Now if a player wants to purposely play a dumb or incapable player then that's one thing (I've never seen it in real play, only stated as a theoretical intention that soon drops away in practice, but let's assume that intention is true as a role play matter) then let me just say this. That's perfectly fine, but let me echo a variation of a quote by Spock on the matter - "it is easier for a smart man to play dumb, than for a dumb man to play smart." In other words playing dumb and really being dumb are two different things. And as far as that goes intelligence has little to do, generally speaking, unless one has severe reasoning difficulties, with problem solving. I've often seen men who are or were considered very smart (many university professors I've known spring immediately to mind) who couldn't locate their rectum with both hands tied to the spot and given large research grants to investigate the matter, much less solve most of their real life problems. Or anyone else's real life problems for that matter. And I've seen, met, or read of guys considered dumb as dirt or not well educated (people like Henry Ford and Thomas Edison spring to mind, you wouldn't know most of the guys I know personally) who are extremely good problem solvers and who end up changing the whole world. And then again in-game I've often seen the guy with the lowest Intelligence score at the table consistently blurt out the most innovative solutions while his supposedly more "intelligent comrades" (if ability scores were the true measure of capability) looked on and said, "Bob, that's brilliant man."

So if a numerical intelligence score in a game is a measure of anything it very likely is not, as a practical matter, anything more than a Geek number in reality, and is infused with no more real substance than whatever the user chooses to infuse it with.

Anyway if you are empirically minded or simply just curious then try the experiment I outlined above.
See what kind of results you generate with your players.
And how they react to it.


One of my proposed house rules to get more description into the game is to give the PC a +1 bonus to the roll if the player describes what the character is doing without the use of game terms. Under a system where the description is a requirement instead of a bonus, how do you think a player should be "punished" for the lack of description? Automatic failure? A penalty to the roll determined by the DM?

On those occasions when we do use the dice I might very well use this as a variation of technique. Say a person is unsure of their action, or wants to rely upon the dice, but still wants to increase his odds of positively controlling a situation, then I might just allow him to give the best description or demonstration he can and then roll the dice at a bonus.


By the way, back to the main topic, last night I asked my wife and two daughters if they would be willing to play in a D&D or RP game with a character type who was a Lady. My oldest daughter, who already plays, said, "I would as long as I still get to adventure and go places." I said, "no, it wouldn't interfere with your female characters now, but it would add capabilities for doing things when you are at Constantinople or traveling somewhere." She said she liked that.

My youngest daughter and wife, when I got to them, said they liked the idea of "being a Lady" and could they dress up like Princesses and have parties? I told em, "so you mean you intend to go to banquets, marry a guy, then spend most of his money on clothes? Sorta like real life then?"

"Uh-huh."

"Yes, of course, but you would also get to hang around court and get into plots and have intrigue and maybe charm or hex people and on occasion even go on adventures."

"Oh, I like that," they both said.

So at least the idea floats well as a trial balloon.
 
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FireLance said:
Under a system where the description is a requirement instead of a bonus, how do you think a player should be "punished" for the lack of description? Automatic failure? A penalty to the roll determined by the DM?

This is my issue with a system that requires you to describe what happens:

It penalizes the shy or casual players.

Would you fix this, or would you just say that shy/casual players shouldn't be involved in role-playing?

Since I'd like to involve every player in every encounter, I want to fix it. I think things that exclude players who are more interested in drinkin' beers and hangin' out than talking in a silly voice are probably more niche, because they require a more narrow set of play styles. Something that allows it but doesn't require it would serve a broader player base.
 

It penalizes the shy or casual players.

Would you fix this, or would you just say that shy/casual players shouldn't be involved in role-playing?

Since I'd like to involve every player in every encounter, I want to fix it.
Here's my solution. Use more than one task resolution system simultaneously (or a combination).

For example, let shy players roll for success during social encounters, using their characters mechanically-defined skills. Let outgoing, loquacious players use their own words to determine their character's success. Allow each player to enjoy the game in their own way.

We did this all the time in our old 3e game, though for slightly different reasons. Unimportant or uninteresting social encounters were rolled for. Others got talked out, frequently with no dice being rolled (presumably because the players were having more fun by simply talking. I won't call for dice rolls during a conversation unless the players want me to).

This said, I think the real answer to the 'shy player problem' is to try and create a social environment where the shy person feels comfortable enough to speak up, rather than to sheer out of the game the situations which might make them anxious.

I'm all for inclusiveness, but at some point inclusiveness becomes the enemy of skill, and I'd like there to be some skill in the game. Should we make combat less tactical, so the tactically-challenged aren't left out?
 

"But some people are just no good at playing that game and would do better with the 'pick the mechanic' format".
And some people are not so good at abstract mathematical assessments and highly specialized system analysis.

There's a heavy prejudice here in favor of that "gamer" kind of thinking, concern that it would "punish" such specialists to reward other kinds (which must thereby be "punished" instead).

I am sympathetic to the idea that a "thespian" performance should not be a big factor ... but my sympathy wears thin when I see the disdain for role playing in an alleged "role playing game".

It's not theatrics that concern me but the fundamental kind of role playing: addressing situations from the perspective of one's persona.

Does the design derive from the "gamers lacking social skills" stereotype? They can develop "system mastery" of countless board-game rules exceptions, but it's too much to expect them to navigate a social milieu? Well, we're supposedly considering here "the game for non-gamers"!

If you really want to engage people who enjoy exploring a social -- or physical (as in old-style dungeon expeditions) -- space, then applying techniques designed to cater to people who prefer to avoid such exploration does not seem like a very good plan.

Take off the blinders of assuming that it's inherently fun to spend an hour pushing pieces from square to square, rolling dice and doing arithmetic. Drop the corollary that it's inherently "unfun" to spend an hour paying attention to details of places and people in the imagined world and solving problems with common sense and creativity.
 

And some people are not so good at abstract mathematical assessments and highly specialized system analysis.
You make a good counter-argument, Ariosto. I wasn't trying to state any sort of position on the matter, merely attempting to present both sides in an easier-to-read format. Obviously there were further parts of the debate that I did not forsee. (And also my personal lack of complex social skills colored my judgement.)
 

I understood that intent, Silvercat! I quoted that part because it seemed a succinct statement of the point to which I wanted to respond.
 

Hard to disprove, with you not saying why it isn't enough other than a hypothetical game system that I'd have to imagine, and well, imagining it, I'm thinking it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

I have no problem with a player hand-waving over an interaction like that with something as simple as saying "I will try to intimidate him to do X" .

I think the reason I want description ("fluff" or "colour") to be important is because those details can really matter.

You threaten to beat him up?
You threaten to take his social position from him (blackmail, in essence)?
You threaten violence against his prize falcon?

How the Duke reacts to those different statements from the player can change the in-game situation in interesting ways. One may work like a charm, and another might totally fail. One might enrage him, one might consider the uncouth PC in a different light ("This guy is smarter and more subtle than I thought... an equal"), etc.

Without interacting with the gameworld, the in-game situation doesn't really change.

I also think that working "outside of the box" of mechanics allows players to come up with interesting solutions to challenges. This does require a certain style of DMing, one where the DM is not committed to any outcome.
 

I think the reason I want description ("fluff" or "colour") to be important is because those details can really matter.

Only if you, as the GM want them to matter....and in the right circumstances, I can accept that you may choose to give a bonus or a penalty (though I would be very cautious with the penalties) to them as appropriate. But requiring them? I think that goes a bit too far.

Of course, it's also feasible to imagine that the success or failure of the die roll represents choosing an appropriate strategy anyway. I think this might even be fairer in general. As long as the player can identify what they're doing (and what skill they're using), more power to them. If it's absolutely absurd in applicability, that's one thing, but I don't need them to act out what they're doing all the time to determine the results.

Without interacting with the gameworld, the in-game situation doesn't really change.

The players ability to influence the gameworld has controls in two places. The mind of the GM and the roll of the dice. The former should be used sparingly when responding to players(creating being another story). The latter is up to the PC and chaos.

Works for me.

I also think that working "outside of the box" of mechanics allows players to come up with interesting solutions to challenges. This does require a certain style of DMing, one where the DM is not committed to any outcome.

Indeed, and while the default mode in 4e is for the GM to be open to ideas, I still think it's better to have mechanics to shape it. There should normally be some chance of success/failure, and on the part of PCs, some ability to focus on the set of skills they want to use to accomplish things, but developing such abilities may not be in the realm of the player, and even if the player does have them, the GM may not be responsive to those skills.

These rules mechanics are what allow those kinds of handicaps to be bypassed. In an ideal world of role-playing, perhaps they might be unnecessary, but I don't pretend to live in that world.

Oh, and the IQ thing is one reason why I don't hold too much on requiring the player to deep-immersion RP their character. Otherwise, to be fair, I'm afraid I'd have to penalize them for being out of character.
 
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