The Game for Non-Gamers: (Forked from: Sexism in D&D)

[LostSoul]

But I will submit, for example, that no "system" for romance will ever be found satisfying for a player for whom romance is the draw. Good romance is about emotions, and that cannot be gotten through a die roll.

I imagine nicotine girls would do troubled teen romance pretty well.

And it includes dice.

 

[Leatherhead]

Is tea really good at a level of abstraction (i.e. no tea)?

I dunno, I never liked tea.

I would still say that slaying a dragon (or other monster) is impossible, whereas having tea is possible...

Well you could potentially slay any living creature in the real world, however there may be moral and/or legal complications. But that isn't quite the point.

Interestingly, if this is all partly prompted by the question of getting women into gaming, I know plenty of women gamers. At least two I know play their characters as extremely bloodthirsty, too.

As I understand it, this is the point of forking this thread from the parent topic.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Whether or not there are, or could be, roleplaying games that cater to people who are uninterested in the currently-typical roleplaying games about adventure and thrilling heroics is one question.

I think the more immediate, and thus more important, question is what roleplaying game companies and players can do to attract and encourage new players who would enjoy games about adventure and thrilling heroics but are currently being put off the hobby for whatever reason - over-complexity, over-simplicity, exclusionary elements and behaviours, a lack of specifically appealing elements and behaviours, et cetera.

In other words, I'm more interested in what I can do to eliminate whatever sexism is driving away women, or racism that is driving away non-whites, who would otherwise love to play a game of D&D, than I am in figuring out how to design or run a game that appeals to people who will never be interested in any game like D&D.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Is tea really good at a level of abstraction (i.e. no tea)? I would still say that slaying a dragon (or other monster) is impossible, whereas having tea is possible... just not tea with elves or dragons. At the very least, "fantasy tea party" must be a niche of a niche of a niche.

Hunting is possible; hunting dragons is not. The level of extraction for a "fantasy tea party" is just as great as a "fantasy hunt."

Interestingly, if this is all partly prompted by the question of getting women into gaming, I know plenty of women gamers. At least two I know play their characters as extremely bloodthirsty, too.

I know plenty of women gamers as well, and they are just as bloodthirsty as the men. But this isn't about women, it's about people who are turned off by the adventuring and combat aspects of D&D, but still love fantasy. Can we welcome them to the hobby, or must we write them off? I'm not yet convinced we have to.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

If people can find time, but only for short sessions, then I think something like 4E is quite poorly suited. In (1970s-80s) grade school, we often played D&D or The Fantasy Trip on lunch breaks. Traveller and Superworld were also played that way, although character generation might take more than one such period. Greater frequency of sessions can make up for shorter ones in terms of moving a "story" along -- and may also benefit from players being "fresh" (as opposed to the fatigue that can set in over several hours).

Lightening the game-mechanical load is just the first of the ways to cut down preparation time. The availability of prepared scenarios that are quickly digested is always an asset. Aids to improvisation are a big help, one reason for the many tables in the 1st edition AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide. Reusable encounter/scene "templates" (such as those in Prince Valiant) can combine both features.

In an RPG, characters might age and life experience might leave its mark on psyches. The supporting cast might change more often; one social role might be traded for another. But cutting out the concept that capabilities and challenges must be in a continual "arms race" can greatly facilitate more casual play -- as well keeping the focus on the unfolding tale rather than on "stats".

Excellent post! I have to think more about this.

I can see the beginnings of a system in my mind, something that can be grafted to D&D instead of overriding it. Sort of a skill-system style social network that tracks the effects of a character's history. I have to think more...

 

[Dausuul]

I think a big reason RPGs tend not to have such clear-cut mechanics for social interaction is that social interaction has such a wide variety of objectives. Combat is usually pretty straightforward; you want to beat down the other guy, and the other guy wants to beat you down, so you beat on each other until one of you drops. It's relatively simple to make rules for that.

In a social interaction, though, each participant has an objective which may or may not be in conflict. To take a simple example: I come up to you with an unlikely tale. My objective is to convince you that my tale is true. Your objective is to determine whether I'm telling the truth. If the tale is false, then we are in competition. If you think I'm telling the truth, I've won and you've lost; if you think I'm lying, the reverse.

But if the tale is true, we're in cooperation. If you think I'm telling the truth, we both win; if you think I'm lying, we both lose. Coming up with a single mechanic to handle this situation (it has to be a single mechanic, otherwise you could tell immediately whether I was lying or not by which mechanic was used to resolve the question) is a tricky business.

Pondering how one might go about this... it definitely requires a different approach.

 

[I'm A Banana]

imagine nicotine girls would do troubled teen romance pretty well.

And it includes dice.

You know what's conspicuously present in nicotine girls (and several other indie RPG's with potential broader appeal) that's missing in D&D?

Hopes.
Fears.
Dreams.

A D&D character's hope is to win a fight. A D&D character's fear is to lose a fight. A D&D character's dream is to win all their fights.

A D&D character might have bigger hopes, fears, and dreams, but there are no rules for achieving them beyond "ask you DM." So then it becomes about a DM's skill to wing a different sort of challenge than combat, which D&D has always been pretty light on supporting.

Mechanics for Roleplaying? Yes. When personal interactions can have as much interest and variety as combat, as much player control and character resources as combat, we're looking at something that helps focus the game on things other than combat, if that's what you want.

 

[Mikaze]

Forgive the artgeeking, but:

Let's consider one of the sources of fantasy: the Pre-Raphaelites.

I have to admit, she doesn't look very interesting or fun to play.

She on the other hand...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm male and I know that I've spent more time in my youth than was probably healthy designing the ultimate fantasy castle for a character... D&D: Interior Design isn't as far away from the common experience as people think.

Did you do it alone or with the entire party?

The Sims is a great game, I think. But can it be framed as an RPG? (Not necessarily a D&D RPG. Just a roleplaying game.)

I am not sure the house-building part in The Sims is anything but a single player aspect. There doesn't seem to go much role-playing into it, either. The social interactions between the Sims - maybe that can be modeled in an RPG, too. Or would that result to too much abstraction?
"Okay, Samanta rolls for Chatting. I pick Weather as topic." *rolls the dice* "24!"
"Hmm. Luke doesn't really like Weather as topic, he finds it shallow. But with a 24, he just enjoys talking with you, and his attitude improves by 1."
"I spend Charming Beauty to increase that by another point."
"Hey, okay. He is now Interested. Reseveration roll is 15." He doesn't act on it yet and instead tries to disengage. Politeness 11."
"My Insistence score is 10." "Okay, he is a little hasty, so you get a choice - let him go and gain 2 charm points against him, or continue the conversation."
"Ah, I let him go. I might need that points later. I think Samantha wants to pursue a real relationship this time, and you know my luck with the dice in these situations..."

 

[Cadfan]

Did you do it alone or with the entire party?

Lots of RPG related activities happen alone. Bluebooking, PBEM...