The Game for Non-Gamers: (Forked from: Sexism in D&D)

[Mallus]

You mean you want the books to have advice on people really go about doing things?

Yes. Advice and helpful anecdotes drawn from literature, film and television (oh, and actual history, too). Describe how you might run a criminal organization in D&D by using The Godfather as an example. I find this more helpful that a bunch of charts or a mechanical subsystem.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Yes. Advice and helpful anecdotes drawn from literature, film and television (oh, and actual history, too). Describe how you might run a criminal organization in D&D by using The Godfather as an example. I find this more helpful that a bunch of charts or a mechanical subsystem.

Well the books would certainly be more fun to read.

 

[Jack7]

Personally, I'd like to see guidelines for all manner of activities that players could conceivably involve themselves in. I'm not sure I want to see rules, at least not rules that carry a heavy freight of expectations.

Like I said, guidelines.

I prefer the non-adventury part of the game to be informed by real experience, or at the very least, from reading outside the hobby.

Also, I'm not fond of elaborate rules for social situations. I like talking and interacting with people (even when they're not real). I find abstracting talking into some kind of mechanical simulation of talking sucks a lot of fun out of it

.

Yes. Advice and helpful anecdotes drawn from literature, film and television (oh, and actual history, too). Describe how you might run a criminal organization in D&D by using The Godfather as an example. I find this more helpful that a bunch of charts or a mechanical subsystem.

That's an interesting idea Mal.

Real history books, of course, would be extremely helpful. And such books could be developed to give a general overview of interests for such conditions as tend to exist in general game settings, or even for different time periods and geographic ranges in real cultures.

But if you're looking for developing a gaming book from literary and dramatic sources that would have sort of a brief synopsis of activities and descriptions outside of fight and kill then it seems to me that you, or anyone else, could write your own.

The very first thing to do would be to develop a list of "general activities" that would be sort of like a Skill's List, but would reflect a broad range of personal activities and interests, rather than game skill-based "scoring and mechanical techniques."

You might also, for ease of classification, break such a work on variant (game) interests down into broad categories, like activities covering Art, Science, Religion, Politics, Academic interests, Festivals, Fasts, and Civic Activities, Work or Labor, Hobbies, etc. A lot would depend upon the nature of the setting, but general guidelines covering most contingencies could be easily enough developed.

Me personally, I'd write one book covering non-fiction or real world situations and suggestions, and another for describing how one might go about adopting and adapting from fictional sources.

I'm sure somebody could develop a set of supplements that at least some portion of the gaming world find interesting, useful, and would buy and read.

I prefer the non-adventury part of the game to be informed by real experience, or at the very least, from reading outside the hobby.

I would like to make one observation however, and I know why you used the term (non-adventury part) like you did (and so do not object), but I'm just making an observation. I've been on real life, and sometimes "dangerous adventures." Physically demanding, potentially lethal, scary as hell, highly athletic, expeditionary, injurous, manhunt type adventures, etc. There is a definite and not to be overlooked, and sometimes quite addictive thrill to such activities. I'm the very first to admit that. Without reservation

I have at other times wrestled hard with a problem, with working out the details of an invention, with solving a problem for the church, or for work, or for buddies of mine, struggled with a mental problem, with an analysis, with learning a new skill, mastering a new athletic capability, worked to near exhaustion on a case, had a very difficult to develop new idea or theory, labored hard on my marriage to avoid divorce and correct it, watched my kids exceed me and what I have done, treated wounds and helped reverse diseases (as well as failed to save others), straightened out my own personal faults and short-comings, enjoyed the crap out of myself in some hobby, saved a guy from drowning, been on search and rescue missions or on patrols which did not result in any earth-shattering event but did lead to assisting someone in a more or less quiet but taxing and demanding way, or so forth and so on. Those kinds of things, though nobody died and nothing exploded and I didn't win anything, and no blood was shed, and sometimes they were almost entirely mental, psychological, or spiritual events. Still, I'd sure call them adventures in their own right. And if I had not had those experiences, I think my other adventures would be that much the smaller for lacking both the contrasts, and the similarities, with those other types of challenges.

Sure, sometimes nothing beats slaying the monster. Or getting the bad-guy. I'm on-board with that.
But sometimes the other types of adventures are certainly adventures enough that they sure stick with you good and tight when your mind wanders back over the things you've done that were really worth doing.

So, most anything can be an adventure, if the enterprise is worthwhile.
It's just that sometimes it takes awhile to realize it.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Forgive the artgeeking, but:



I have to admit, she doesn't look very interesting or fun to play.

She on the other hand...

Hey, it's all good.

But yeah, I absolutely need to get more Pre-Raphaelite in my next campaign.

I think I'll run Birthright next, some PBEM+FTF hybrid. It will, at least, work within my schedule--the whole "sit down for 4 hours" thing is hard to do even on the weekend for me. If we sit down only for specific adventures or a council meeting, things which won't necessarily require all players to be available at the same time at the same place, but still allowing for interaction, that may work well.

Then there's good reason to play the lady, the knight, or the witch.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

I would like to make one observation however, and I know why you used the term (non-adventury part) like you did (and so do not object), but I'm just making an observation. I've been on real life, and sometimes "dangerous adventures." Physically demanding, potentially lethal, scary as hell, highly athletic, expeditionary, injurous, manhunt type adventures, etc. There is a definite and not to be overlooked, and sometimes quite addictive thrill to such activities. I'm the very first to admit that. Without reservation

I have at other times wrestled hard with a problem, with working out the details of an invention, with solving a problem for the church, or for work, or for buddies of mine, struggled with a mental problem, with an analysis, with learning a new skill, mastering a new athletic capability, worked to near exhaustion on a case, had a very difficult to develop new idea or theory, labored hard on my marriage to avoid divorce and correct it, watched my kids exceed me and what I have done, treated wounds and helped reverse diseases (as well as failed to save others), straightened out my own personal faults and short-comings, enjoyed the crap out of myself in some hobby, saved a guy from drowning, been on search and rescue missions or on patrols which did not result in any earth-shattering event but did lead to assisting someone in a more or less quiet but taxing and demanding way, or so forth and so on. Those kinds of things, though nobody died and nothing exploded and I didn't win anything, and no blood was shed, and sometimes they were almost entirely mental, psychological, or spiritual events. Still, I'd sure call them adventures in their own right. And if I had not had those experiences, I think my other adventures would be that much the smaller for lacking both the contrasts, and the similarities, with those other types of challenges.

Sure, sometimes nothing beats slaying the monster. Or getting the bad-guy. I'm on-board with that.
But sometimes the other types of adventures are certainly adventures enough that they sure stick with you good and tight when your mind wanders back over the things you've done that were really worth doing.

So, most anything can be an adventure, if the enterprise is worthwhile.
It's just that sometimes it takes awhile to realize it.

QFT.

This is the point. This is what I'm talking about. There are plenty of things to do that don't involve slaying the dragon that are still arduous, challenging, taxing, risky, and scary. I (and my wife) don't expect the game to become the straw man of endless tea. I'm talking about a world in which combat isn't the main thing, it's just one thing out of a myriad.

And besides, think about falling in love--from 30,000 feet, nothing happens. At all. But that shifting, intoxicating conflict of emotions in the pursuit of the favor of that special someone is exhilarating when you're in the thick of it.

 

[Ariosto]

There's an aspect of WotC's designs that gets me. A complex, time consuming combat game is great in two extreme cases:
(A) One fight after another is largely what the game is all about, context being a token rationalization or afterthought.
(B) Context is by far more important, to the extent that there's no such thing as an "insignificant" fight; the stakes are always high, perhaps higher even than life and death.

I have played Champions in both modes, even alternating in the same campaign. That made sense to me because superhero comic books swing from a "professional wrestling" tone to a "soap opera" one.

D&D, though, has traditionally fallen somewhere in between.

 

[Jack7]

Right now, the game does a great job of making the knight a PC. Would we be able to attract more players to the game if the game also had rules for playing the lady as a PC?

I ask because I think there's an opportunity here. There are other House games out there, like The Sims, but they don't hold that fantasy mystique. There are other fantasy games out there, but they focus on the Epic Hero. It doesn't seem to me to be too much more a stretch of the imagination to include the PC lady (and no, making an Aristocrat doesn't cut it). It can be attractive to both sides, like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. There's a wealth of fun an competition to be had in societal dances, power brokering, acquisition of the exotic, and romance.

After all, Tea Party is never about the tea.

I don't know. That seems like a helluvah good idea to me, now that I've read the suggestion. There are occasions in the romances where the Lady went adventuring with the knight (Tristan and Isole), and plenty of cases in myth and literature where the knight or hero was accompanied by the witch-maiden, or Elven queen.

As the picture made evident ladies don't have to engage in hand to hand combat in order to be useful on an expedition. Magic is the technology of the medieval fantasy world. Yielding many advantages to those who master it. The Lady could easily make use of it as an in-the-field and expeditionary skill and capability, and when at court or in a non-lethal or secure environment make use of both magic and a whole host of (other) diplomatic, civil, courtly, romantic, political, social, and psychological capabilities.

Say a lady was a nun or hermitess, or a psychic (as is the case in one of my settings), experienced in magic or witchcraft (not malignant witchcraft, but witchery, charm, and influence), an educated scholar of some sort, a poet or bardess, an instrumentalist and lyricist, a nurse or physician, a teacher or some sort of sage, a linguist, a diplomat or ambassador (also in my campaign), or simply an admixture of many things in addition to her "station as a lady." Maybe she started life in the wilds, as a barbarian and can also hunt, fish, and track if need be. Maybe even steal and spy well. Such ladies could wield a lot of influence and have a whole range of capabilities which extended to a broad range of environments and circumstances. When it came to skills and capacities hers might not be anywhere near as directly or evidently lethal but they might very well outnumber those of her male counterpart, making her the more flexible and adaptable in many circumstances. Then again there is also always the matter of "veiled lethality and dangerousness."

Anyway I like the idea of "the Lady" and after giving it some real thought I may very well develop a Lady character class. Or maybe more than one Lady character class.

I suspect that my wife and my younger daughter, both of whom have little interest in being a Ranger, Soldier, or a Scout might very well take happily to the idea of being a Lady. If she had a range of capabilities and could have adventures of a correspondingly wide range. To tell you the truth I think the name of the class alone might be sort of alluring to them. A lot more alluring than Rogue.

I like the idea though of the Lady as a separate "class" or profession, and I think I'm gonna steal it if you don't mind.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

I'd certainly give that class a shot.

There's a free product from Sean K Reynolds called The New Argonauts that has a class in it for imitating the spellcasting women of Greek myths and epics. You could try starting there.

 

[Jack7]

I'd certainly give that class a shot.

There's a free product from Sean K Reynolds called The New Argonauts that has a class in it for imitating the spellcasting women of Greek myths and epics. You could try starting there.

Thanks SM2. I'll investigate that link.

Right now, just as open speculation, I'm thinking of developing a Nun/Nurse (for female clerical and medical types), an as yet un-named Barbarian/Thief or Rogue type, a Female Enchantress/Witch and/or Illusionist, and a Bardess as basic classes.

But the Lady and Maiden would be "supertypes."

That is one could be a Lady and still be a Bardess.
Or a Maiden and a Nun, or a Maiden/Enchantress.

Edit: You know I should also include something very like a Druidess/Witch, very close to nature, good with animals and an herbalist, in addition to a Scholar/Wise woman class, a Prophetess/Oracle/Seeress, and maybe a female scribe.

The Lady and Maiden "types" would include things like diplomacy, courtly graces and intrigue, political skill, charm and manipulation, information gathering, weaving and manufacture, maybe codes and ciphers, "people-reading," social skills, romance, etc, etc. You could learn to become a Lady or Maiden in addition to your professional class. (I'm thinking of doing something comparable with types for men, Nobleman and Gentleman.)

Then the non-human races might have some of the same professions and yet even some different "classes."

I'm just playing around with ideas right now.

 

[YourSwordIsMine]

Thanks SM2. I'll investigate that link.

Right now, just as open speculation, I'm thinking of developing a Nun/Nurse (for female clerical and medical types), an as yet un-named Barbarian/Thief or Rogue type, a Female Enchantress/Witch and/or Illusionist, and a Bardess as basic classes.

But the Lady and Maiden would be "supertypes."

That is one could be a Lady and still be a Bardess.
Or a Maiden and a Nun, or a Maiden/Enchantress.

Edit: You know I should also include something very like a Druidess/Witch, very close to nature, good with animals and an herbalist, in addition to a Scholar/Wise woman class, a Prophetess/Oracle/Seeress, and maybe a female scribe.

The Lady and Maiden "types" would include things like diplomacy, courtly graces and intrigue, political skill, charm and manipulation, information gathering, weaving and manufacture, maybe codes and ciphers, "people-reading," social skills, romance, etc, etc. You could learn to become a Lady or Maiden in addition to your professional class. (I'm thinking of doing something comparable with types for men, Nobleman and Gentleman.)

Then the non-human races might have some of the same professions and yet even some different "classes."

I'm just playing around with ideas right now.

how about a "Camp Follower" as well. one of my favorite careers from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay