MichaelSomething
Legend
Now I regret my last post.
Here's an example of doing something worst to a character then killing them...
Here's an example of doing something worst to a character then killing them...
Indeed.Now I regret my last post.
Here's an example of doing something worst to a character then killing them...
I find this to be the real problem. Most gamers are overloaded with "most media" and it's very, very, very soft depiction of non-failure.Only because in most media they're not going to let a real failure happen. That doesn't have anything to do with what the actual stakes are.
If the game has a story plot that the players care about, then you always have the overall stakes of failure for that. But just in the microcosm of combat, the only stakes are character death. Nothing else really matters.To me, this still seems to involve a bit of a non-sequitur - because a physical altercation can involve meaningful stakes other than fatality.
Super Hero games are not made for any sort of death. How often do characters die in comic books? Not oftenI haven't done a lot of superhero RPGing, but in the first session of Marvel Heroic RP that I GMed, there was a pretty interesting fight between War Machine (PC) and Titanium Man (NPC):
It's a while ago now, but at least as I remember it this was reasonably tense and exciting - not because War Machine was in danger of being killed, but because he was unable to defeat Titanium Man, which was his goal.
I do. Those are consequences in addition to potential loss of life. Combat in my games usually has multiple consequences, one of which is always potential loss of life.
For you. I feel differently. Sorry that me feeling differently is a problem for you. It is what it is, and I can't change the fact that I find deathless combat boring and pointless. That's just my personal subjective emotional experience.
Deathless combat for me is just a "filler" scene in an action or supers movie. It's a complete waste of time to play through. It's something that could easily be narrated or decided with a roll or two, and the game can move on to more interesting things. Again, sorry that my inability to feel tension during a combat encounter, that I know my PC will survive no matter what, bothers you. It is what it is. You not liking it, or failing to grasp that not everyone feels the way you do about things, sounds like a you problem.
I find this to be the real problem. Most gamers are overloaded with "most media" and it's very, very, very soft depiction of non-failure.
Of course it's self-centered. I can't do anything if I'm dead! Same goes for my PC. If my PC dies, they are unable to continue doing things. Perhaps that's the reason why I find deathless combat to be so pointless. Without the motivation to remain alive, combat feels like an empty endeavor, as it is too far divorced from reality for me to be able to form an emotional investment.Point is, I think it requires a certain self-centered view of what you're playing for for character survival to be the main one.
I never proposed that it should be adopted as a universal. You are the one projecting your expectation that everyone should be on board with deathless combat, or that having deathless combat is somehow better than combat wherein a PC may die. You are the one who stated that games where a PC can die are somehow flawed, and that players that like those kinds of games are shallow and fickle. I never once said that folks that like deathless combat are doing it wrong. I merely stated my preference, and why I have said preferences.its not a problem in other people's games. Its a problem when they project it on their expectations in the hobby as a whole.
I think it's harmful to declare that players who don't find deathless combat enjoyable are narrow minded, fickle, or shallow. It smells alot like "one true wayism" to my ears. Which is something I will never hesitate to rally against. Sorry if you don't like it when people state opinions that you don't agree with, but that's a reality of life.I absolutely grasp people do feel that way. I think its harmful to the hobby as a whole when that turns into the default assumption, and I'm not going to hesitate to say so.
Obviously. There is a whole subgenre of TTRPGs that don't deal with anything heavy. That's the whole point of those games, to just have super happy fun time. That also doesn't mean that people who enjoy the opposite are somehow doing it wrong. The hobby includes a diverse array of people, with diverse wants and expectations. Just because folks don't like or want what you like or want out of a game, doesn't mean they are shallow or fickle or having badwrongfun!That's an issue with most people not wanting to really engage with the consequences of failure, and is just as true whatever those consequences are. And honestly, RPGs are a leisure time activity; if people don't feel like dealing with heavy negative consequences in that that's their choice.
Yet there is a whole subgenre of fiction centered on characters who have "lost everything" and yet survived. They deal with the idea of "life going on" even after tragedy and loss. They are quite often some of the most heartfelt and uplifting stories you can imagine. Honestly, I think the world would be a frighteningly different place if survival was as low on the list of people's priorities as you seem to think it should be. Sorry that some of us have no issue with dealing with those kinds of ideas in our games. We enjoy it. If you don't, that's fine, don't have those kinds of things in your games. Accept the fact that not everyone likes what you like, or wants their games to be just like your games. I for one would probably hate participating in a game you were running, as I would be likely to find alot of my session time occupied by things that I find boring and pointless. Just like you probably wouldn't like participating in a game I'm running because there is no guarantee that your PC will get a satisfying story arc, or even survive long enough to complete said story arc. Lucky for both of us that no one has the ability to force us to play a certain way!But that's orthogonal to what kind of consequences are significant. If my failure in-character has had his family or home time get destroyed, that's going to have as much more more impact than whether he survived.
Of course it's self-centered. I can't do anything if I'm dead!
Same goes for my PC. If my PC dies, they are unable to continue doing things.
I never proposed that it should be adopted as a universal. You are the one projecting your expectation that everyone should be on board with deathless combat, or that having deathless combat is somehow better than combat wherein a PC may die.
You are the one who stated that games where a PC can die are somehow flawed, and that players that like those kinds of games are shallow and fickle. I never once said that folks that like deathless combat are doing it wrong. I merely stated my preference, and why I have said preferences.
I think it's harmful to declare that players who don't find deathless combat enjoyable are narrow minded, fickle, or shallow. It smells alot like "one true wayism" to my ears. Which is something I will never hesitate to rally against. Sorry if you don't like it when people state opinions that you don't agree with, but that's a reality of life.
Yet there is a whole subgenre of fiction centered on characters who have "lost everything" and yet survived.
They deal with the idea of "life going on" even after tragedy and loss. They are quite often some of the most heartfelt and uplifting stories you can imagine. Honestly, I think the world would be a frighteningly different place if survival was as low on the list of people's priorities as you seem to think it should be.
Sorry that some of us have no issue with dealing with those kinds of ideas in our games. We enjoy it. If you don't, that's fine, don't have those kinds of things in your games. Accept the fact that not everyone likes what you like, or wants their games to be just like your games. I for one would probably hate participating in a game you were running, as I would be likely to find alot of my session time occupied by things that I find boring and pointless. Just like you probably wouldn't like participating in a game I'm running because there is no guarantee that your PC will get a satisfying story arc, or even survive long enough to complete said story arc. Lucky for both of us that no one has the ability to force us to play a certain way!