D&D 5E The "Lawful" alignment, and why "Lawful Evil" is NOT an oxymoron!

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Flat earth - people believed the earth was flat, even though in reality it is round. Similarly, whereas you may believe yourself to be on the side of LG, on one side of this 2d diagram, in fact that diagram is actually a globe and you are in fact on the other side...in much the same way if you give a globe a couple of turns, America is in the East, relative to you.
Ooh it's a minefield.
But in game it does give a framework to work within and when they were alignment violations to be had, it gave a good map as to where your actions were taking you. IMO.
 

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IME 'real world' examples of Lawful Evil groups never actually are Lawful, they have huge amounts of internal deadly conflict as individuals struggle for dominance, and fit much better into the Chaotic end of Moorcockian L-N-C. In practice I don't find that LE or CG alignments work well to emulate anything either real or fictional, so I prefer L-N-C or 4e's LG-G-U-E-CE approaches, or else not using Alignment.
 

Chaotic means "disorder and confusion."

I doubt many Chaotic Good characters are either of those things.

Chaotic and Lawful are poor word choices based on an incredibly abstract philisophical idea of universal creation vs entropy from Moorcock books Gygax liked.

That started goofy in the game and got nothing but more and more elaborate and confusing as time went on.

Mordenkainen is True Neutral because he believes in universal balance, so he sometimes aids heroes and sometimes aids mass murderers.

Total nonsense.

Where do you get your Alignment definitions from? :scratchhead:
 



That probably explains why you keep getting "total nonsense".

I would recommend using the gaming references and or source material instead, no offense to the Oxford dictionary.

Look at the conversation I was having.

It was about, among other things, whether or not Lawful and Chaotic were even sensible words to use in regards to the alignment they're trying to describe.

My point being they really aren't.
 

Look at the conversation I was having.

It was about, among other things, whether or not Lawful and Chaotic were even sensible words to use in regards to the alignment they're trying to describe.

My point being they really aren't.

On the other hand if you do not use the correct definition of the words then you can not have a sensible discussion.

It is quite normal for specialised subjects to have different definitions for words.
 

Flat earth - people believed the earth was flat, even though in reality it is round. Similarly, whereas you may believe yourself to be on the side of LG, on one side of this 2d diagram, in fact that diagram is actually a globe and you are in fact on the other side...in much the same way if you give a globe a couple of turns, America is in the East, relative to you.
Ooh it's a minefield.
But in game it does give a framework to work within and when they were alignment violations to be had, it gave a good map as to where your actions were taking you. IMO.

Humor aside, very few people actually believed the Earth was flat by the early Medieval period, let alone Columbus' time. Artistic depictions of the Earth viewed from outside (e.g. by God, from Heaven) in Medieval art, for example, are difficult to sell as anything other than orbs.

As for the actual Alignment stuff, does this really mean anything? If the system is globular, then it's more accurate to speak of poles of alignment rather than sides, otherwise you get Good and Evil (and Law and Chaos) butting right up against each other. (You also get serious oddities because a 2d square/rectangle cannot be smoothly deformed to cover a sphere.) At which point it is trivially easy to reconstruct the original layout--you just end up having two True Neutral regions. You can, in fact, construct a nearly identical concept by looking at a tidally-locked planet with a strong magnetic field oriented perpendicular to the orbital plane: it has a magnetic north and south pole, and it has a "dark/cold" and "light/hot" pole due to the tidal locking. There's only one place where you're at "magnetic south," but there are two places where you're "exactly halfway between north/south AND light/dark." If you look at the "light" hemisphere, you'd have a ring of twilight (neutral on the light/dark scale). Slicing the planet radially (that is, cutting it exactly in half in the direction of the radius of its orbit) would exactly reproduce the 9-square alignment grid, just shaped like a circle.

Edit:
And yeah, "chaotic" and "lawful" really aren't the best. Honestly, neither is "good" and "evil" really. Very few people think of themselves and their goals as "evil." They think what they're doing is the Correct Thing To Do, which is usually considered the Moral Good even if it involves unpleasant or socially disfavored things. I made a halfhearted attempt to find better ones, can't find the file I saved it in now. I want to say I substituted "Pragmatic" instead of "Chaotic," but I don't really remember now.

Basically, my understanding of them is that the ideal for Lawful is "a place for everything and everything in its place," with a reliable and consistent answer for each situation as it arises. While the ideal for Chaotic is a stable anarchy--all entities purely independent of each other, though they may associate if they feel like it, until they don't feel like it anymore.
 
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Lawful good - Superman
Acts as a good person is expected or required to act, with honor, duty, commitment to oppose evil. Tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. Hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Neutral good - Spiderman
Acts without regard for or against lawful rules or traditions. Devoted to helping others, works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them. When breaking rules, they do not suffer inner conflict lawful character would.

Chaotic good - Batman
Hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. Follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with society. Favors change for a greater good, places high value on freedom. Does the right things, but generally disorganized.

Lawful neutral - Argus Filch
Believes strongly in lawful concepts such as honor, order, rules, and tradition, and often acts as law, or a personal code directs her.

Neutral - Severus Snape
Is neutral on both axes and tends not to feel strongly towards any alignment, or actively seeks their balance. Doesn't feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos.

Chaotic neutral - Captain Jack Sparrow
Follows their own heart and shirks rules and traditions. Is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom.

Lawful evil - Dolores Umbridge
Takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct. Cares about order but not about freedom. Condemns others according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. Loath to break laws or promises. Depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Might have particular taboos, such as not letting children come to harm. They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

Neutral evil - Lucius Malfoy
Selfish, no qualms about turning on its allies, and usually makes allies to further their goals. Has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they cause mayhem when they see no direct benefit. Does whatever can get away with. Is pure, simple. Some hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities.

Chaotic Evil - Belatrix Lestrange
Does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. Is hot-tempered, vicious, violent, unpredictable, ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to assassinate him.
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Note:
Possibly there should be 4 more - Social (between Lawful & Neutral), Rebel (between True & Chaotic), Moral (between Good and Neutral), Impure (between Neutral and Evil), making it 20 alignments. However, that is hell complicated.
 
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are there examples of authentic LE organizations, who -don't- break the "lawful" part when it benefits them? Most examples I can think of end up being Neutral Evil when you look closely.
Basically, 'evil' usually involves putting oneself before others (people, ideas, organizations, etc). 'Lawful' at least implies that you won't always do that; some other force is present and demands to be met (aforementioned people, ideas, organizations, etc.).

But being evil should trump; IRL, evil people follow a code until it's not convenient (like the Nazis; a great many creature comforts would have to be sacrificed if one was to fully follow through on the philosophy of the Third Reich), so while I'll buy that people try to pass themselves off as Lawful Evil (like, say Dr. Doom), in practice they are Neutral Evil.
For an interesting essay on this point, you might want to look at Kristen Rundle's "The Impossibility of an Exterminatory Legality" in the Toronto Law Journal for 2009.

I think there is a reading of LE, though, that can more-or-less accept this point.

Chaotic Good doesn't make a ton of sense since "Chaos" as a thing that happens, tends to not favour good, but evil. It's hard to imagine endorsing chaos and thinking benevolence will result; maybe as a temporary measure against a Lawful Evil empire, but not as a philosophy of the world you'd like to see happen.
I think there is a reading of CG that can more-or-less accept this point, too.

For these readings of LE and CG, see my next post.
 

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