D&D (2024) The Multiverse in the 2024 Players Handbook

[Kobold Avenger]

As far as I can tell, "prime" is a 1e oddity.

It wasn't, it still was in 2e. "Primes" (and one of the more polite terms) was what they called natives of the Material Plane in Sigilian Cant.

 

[Chaltab]

It was prime because everything else revolves around it. Even the outer planes and gods are tied to the prime plane and wouldn't exist without it. The positive and negative material planes weren't echoes of the prime. They were the poles of the multiverse.

Interestingly enough, in 1e(and maybe 2e) there were multiple prime planes. Each was separate and not part of the single whole that 5e uses. Greyhawk existed in a separate prime plane than the Realms. Each prime also had it's own separate ethereal plane.

Not 2E. Second edition is where Spelljammer came from. 5E uses combination of the 2e and 4e takes on the cosmology.

 

[Maxperson]

Not 2E. Second edition is where Spelljammer came from. 5E uses combination of the 2e and 4e takes on the cosmology.

2e changed things only kinda sorta. There were no longer infinite different primes(just infinite crystal spheres), but the prime plane was still the center of things. The inner planes existed to provide the building blocks for the prime and the outer planes and gods existed because of prime planar belief.

When WotC took over, 3e, 4e and 5e dropped the term prime, but the material plane remains the center of things.

 

[Yaarel]

The 2024 cosmology makes clear that the Astral Plane overlaps all of the Inner Planes, including Fey, Shadow, Ether, and Elementals. Material remains the center of the multiverse.

In a sense both the Material and the Outlands are at the center of the multiverse, tho it is less clear how these relate to each other. That said, both are an area where all of the alignments can interact with each other.

The "wheels" of the Inner and Outer planes seem clear to me. I view them as a gyroscope.

Here the horizontal wheel is the Inner Planes. The outer rim is the Elemental Planes. Perhaps they rotate, such that each Elemental cycles thru the seasons of becoming more Lawful then more Chaotic. Sometimes Air is Lawful and Earth is Chaotic, sometimes opposite.

The center is the Material Plane with the Positive Fey overlapping from above and Negative Shadow overlapping from below. Meanwhile, the entire horizontal wheel is the Ethereal pervading everything across the Inner Planes.

The vertical wheel is the Outer Planes, the alignment planes. Good correlates upward with Positivity. Evil correlates downward with Negativity. Positive energy can be used for Good or Evil, and likewise Negative void can be used for Good or Evil. Even so, the tendency toward "up" or "down" is true enough.

The Fey as a Positive Ether orients toward the Good planes, because of the Positive energy in common. The Shadow as a Negative Ether orients toward the Shadow planes, because of the Negative void in common.

The link between the Negative Shadowfell and Evil "Hades" are entangling concepts relating to the underworld of the dead. Likewise, Hell, Gehenna, Carceri, and in some sense the Abyss are all underworld concepts. There seems to be natural "crossings" between the Material to Shadowfell to the Evil alignment planes. The link is the Negativity, despite the Negativity itself being Unaligned. There are likely crossings from the Shadowfell to LE, ELE, E, ECE, and CE.

Oppositely, the Feywild via the Positivity implies crossings to all of the Good planes: LG Celestia, GLG Bytopia, G Elysium, GCG Beastlands, and CG Arborea. Because of the Eladrin, one might expect a special connection between CG Arborea and the Feywild. However it is probably true that there is an equally special connection between LG Mount Celestia and Feywild, as well. The Feywild itself is Unaligned being an aspect of the Material. It orients toward all of the alignment planes that Positivity prevails.

In the thoughtscape of the Astral Plane, Positivity relates to Good ethics, while Negativity relates to Evil ethics. But in the materialization within the Ethereal Plane, Positivity and Negativity relate neutrally to matter and space, respectively.

The Neutral alignment planes of LN Mechanus, N Outlands, and CN Limbo are a mix of Positivity and Negativity that seems to strongly associate the Ethereal and its Elementals, and seems intimately involved in the production of the Material Plane and the matter within it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think that's actually the opposite of the truth though. You can't copyright generic. Generic is what gets put in the SRD.

What does being able to impose copyright have to do with the value of the game in anything other than a strict financial sense?

 

[Micah Sweet]

As far as I can tell, "prime" is a 1e oddity.

1e has in its Players Handbook:
• Positive MATERIAL Plane
• Negative MATERIAL Plane
• "Prime" Material Plane

Apparently, Positive and Negative were kinds "material" planes, but the normal material plane was the "prime" one, and the others ... secondary echoes.

So where 5e 2024 has the three "Material Realms" (namely Material, Positive Feywild, Negative Shadowfell), it seems to be a 1e-ism.


Personally, I make sense of this as:

Ethereal = Force
Positive Ethereal = Fey
Negative Ethereal = Shadow

And "force" is weird because, like gravity, it is immaterial but is physical, and can physically push matter around. Force is part of the Material Plane.

Prime was all over 2e and Planescape too. Don't remember about 3e.

 

[Chaltab]

What does being able to impose copyright have to do with the value of the game in anything other than a strict financial sense?

Reynard's point was that less generic was less valuable. That may be true to some players and groups, but to the purpose of building a community as a whole and to the people at WOTC making the calls, i just don't think it holds up. Especially when the core rules of D&D and many other systems are released under an open license. Specific beats general in both D&D rules and in IP.

 

[ART!]

That's DMG stuff.

Players who want to run clerics (or paladins) might disagree with this.

Regarding the illustration - I love all the different ways to visualize these things that we've had over the years and editions. I don't much care what planes there are or aren't, but these sure are fun to look at and think about.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Reynard's point was that less generic was less valuable. That may be true to some players and groups, but to the purpose of building a community as a whole and to the people at WOTC making the calls, i just don't think it holds up. Especially when the core rules of D&D and many other systems are released under an open license. Specific beats general in both D&D rules and in IP.

Fair enough. I don't really care about WotC's opinion.

 

[Azzy]

Interesting lack of mention of gods and demons and devils and where they make their homes.

Really? Few if any PHBs have given that information.