D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Neonchameleon]

Probably agree

He's using it as written - you can debate what DMs will allow, but the point of testing is to look at what is in the actual rules. Assuming 80% uptime doesn't change the math much.

Yes - but he's also implying that it's the warlock that's broken when the real problem is that Spirit Shroud is providing 17.55 DPR. (And his unorthodox use of a limited use ability in Smite in sustained DPR calculations adds more extra damage than Hex would).

Not really; it still winds up at or above the top of the heap, plus all the advantages that he cites.

Take 17.55 damage out from Spirit Shroud and leveling the playing field by not including limited use abilities and no it doesn't. It's good but not top. Spirit Shroud is the part of this build that is outright broken.

And then there's the fact that I don't think Pact of the Blade qualifies for Great Weapon Master (Prerequisite: Proficiency with Any Martial Weapon) but that's a question that takes rules clarification. And taking that away takes away a further almost 5DPR.

When we remove over 20 DPR off a build because it shouldn't be there that's a lot. Low 40s DPR is fine.

(And before someone suggests Shadow of Moil is a better buff than Spirit Shroud Shadow takes an entire action to cast so can only be used for pre-buffing in ambush or challenge situations).

 

[Mistwell]

2) 100% uptime on spirit shroud, I agree thats tough. In a 3 round combat, I would assume uptime of 2 rounds.

Bad assumption. Your chance to make a concentration check is very very high, You're assuming you're not only being hit, but defy the odds by quite a bit in missing the check.

 

[Stalker0]

Bad assumption. Your chance to make a concentration check is very very high, You're assuming you're not only being hit, but defy the odds by quite a bit in missing the check.

But look at the math, my point is even wtih lessening the uptime its still the king of damage.

 

[mellored]

The crit part isn’t the issue here, the issue is the assumption that the warlock will always have a Pact Magic slot available to Eldritch Smite with when they crit. Especially since he’s also assuming the Warlock uses a spell slot to cast Spirit Shroud every combat. Pact Magic really only gives enough spell slots to use one per encounter, assuming 6 encounters and 2 short rests.

2 short rest = 9 slots.
+2 from magical cunning.
-6 from Shroud.
= 5 smites.

And you probably only 3 crits per day. It's only the basic 5%.

 

[Mistwell]

But look at the math, my point is even wtih lessening the uptime its still the king of damage.

Yes, I thought you overall had a good response. Just saying on that one it's more than just a conservative estimate it's probably overboard. Shroud is up for probably 80%+ of those attacks.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But look at the math, my point is even wtih lessening the uptime its still the king of damage.

As long as you have Spirit Shroud at all, yes. That's the broken part here.

Also your math is broken I think, You don't add double the rolled damage for a crit - you already have it in the baseline; your chance of hitting is 60% (from the graze) not 65%. So instead of

2d6 + 5 (Base Greatsword) * 60% +
4d6 + 5 (Crit) * 5% +
1d6 (Lifedrinker) * 60% +
2d6 (Lifedrinker Crit) * 5% +
2d8 (Spirit Shroud) * 60% * 2/3 (2 out of 3 rounds) +
4d8 (Spirit Shroud Crit) * 5% * 2/3 +
5 (Graze) * 40%

It should be (and subsituting out the broken thing)

• 2d6 + 5 (Base Greatsword) * 60% +
• 2d6 (Crit) * 5% +
• 1d6 (Lifedrinker) * 60% +
• 1d6 (Lifedrinker Crit) * 5% +
• 1d6 (Hex)
• 1d6 (Hex Crit) * 5%
• 5 (Graze) * 40%

On a hit that's 4d6+5 *60% + 5*40%
With an additional 4d6 *5% to account for crits

Rounding slightly (because I'm doing this in my head) that's 12 (hit) + 2 (graze) + 0.75 (crit) = 14.75 damage per attack = 44.25. Which is ... reasonable.

Spirit shroud does an extra (2d8-1d6=5.5) * (60% (hit) + 5% (crit)) damage per attack over hex, which, multiplying by 3 is just over 10. This leads to 55 DPR with Spirit Shroud, which is a bit much.

 

[Stalker0]

2 short rest = 9 slots.
+2 from magical cunning.
-6 from Shroud.
= 5 smites.

And you probably only 3 crits per day. It's only the basic 5%.

oh good point I had forgotten magical cunning, let me update my math above with that

 

[Neonchameleon]

The crit part isn’t the issue here, the issue is the assumption that the warlock will always have a Pact Magic slot available to Eldritch Smite with when they crit. Especially since he’s also assuming the Warlock uses a spell slot to cast Spirit Shroud every combat. Pact Magic really only gives enough spell slots to use one per encounter, assuming 6 encounters and 2 short rests.

That's not the problem. The problem is that no other class normally has their DPR calculated this way. Limited use abilities are not normally included in DPR calculations unless they are active buffs. And it leads to a whole conversation about the difference in usefulness between burst and DPR - and controllable and uncontrollable burst.

 

[Mistwell]

(And his unorthodox use of a limited use ability in Smite in sustained DPR calculations adds more extra damage than Hex would).

,,,, by not including limited use abilities

I have no idea what "unorthodox" in this context would mean. What is orthodoxy in using smite just when you crit? That's....very standard. There is nothing wrong with using the invocation you chose expressly to increase damage that way to calculate the average damage you'd do with that thing included. Everyone uses a crit chance calculation to compare classes. It's about as orthodox as these things come. And when you have that limited resource you use it when it's to best use. Which is crits.

 

[Remathilis]

...and questionably outdated material (Spirit Shroud).

Stop this. The whole point of this miserable playtest experience has been to make sure this new Players Handbook works with the last 10 years of D&D material, including spells released in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (where the bulk of the new additions to the PHB are coming from.) Until we see an updated version of Spirit Shroud in a playtest, we have to assume it's 100% viable for builds and playtesting.

I've watched too many good ideas flushed down the crapper in the name of backwards compatibility to not have it matter now.