D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Charlaquin]

But you just said...

So you can't say warlocks have plenty of spells but they also have less spells.

Of course I can. Warlocks do have fewer spell slots. They also have plenty of spell slots. Other casters have more than enough spell slots. They kind of have to, that’s just how daily spell management is designed to work.

They have two spells per rest and if you're not actually spellcasting, you get two smite/crits per rest, plus Cunning if you need it.

If you’re not actually spellcasting, yeah. That’s not a small ask for a primary caster.

And they get 5th level slots to burn FAR sooner than a paladin will.

And they also miss out on other Paladin features. It’s almost like different classes have different advantages and disadvantages compared to each other.

Of course it’s all upside. It’s TOO MUCH upside.

It’s not. It’s good for Warlocks, good for Paladins, and good for Warlock/Paladin multiclass characters. All three will be viable options. Everyone wins!

Because MOAR POWAR IS KEWL!!!!1!

And yet, the playerbase does recognize when some things are too powerful, and asks for them to be changed. This is not one of those times.

 

[Scribe]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You cannot get

Rank 9 Spells, 3 Attacks, and the best Blaster Cantrip, all at the same time, can you?

 

[Remathilis]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You cannot get

Rank 9 Spells, 3 Attacks, and the best Blaster Cantrip, all at the same time, can you?

Sure you can.

Mystic Arcanum is a regular class feature; you'll get a 9th level MA at 17th level. You get four cantrips (EB being one of them) and you get ten Invocations. Pact Blade, Thirsting Blade, and Lifedrinker and Agonizing Blast are four of them; you could have all of them by 5th level (with one extra to boot).

That's the problem: Going Bladelock has truly little opportunity cost. Each ability is siloed in a different place. You don't spell your Invocations to get 9th level slots OR blade abilities; you just get to pick both. Pick Eldritch Blast as a cantrip and you'll still have three cantrips (plus any you get from other sources). Its stupidly simple to get your cake AND eat it too, especially if your DM is free with SRs.

 

[Charlaquin]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You cannot get

Rank 9 Spells, 3 Attacks, and the best Blaster Cantrip, all at the same time, can you?

Warlocks don’t get actual spell slots above 5th level. They get one spell each of levels 6, 7, 8, and 9, each of which they can only cast once per day. This is not a change, they have worked that way since 2014.

As for 3 attacks and the best blaster cantrip. Those are the same thing. Eldritch Blast scales with level by number of beams, at the same rate fighters get extra attacks. This is also not a change, Warlocks have worked this way since 2014.

The only new thing warlocks got in UA7 about which folks are suddenly freaking out since Treantmonk told them it was OP, is the latest playtest version of the 5th level Invocation, Thirsting Blade. Previously, Thirstinh Blade let a Blade Pact warlock gain a second attack with their pact weapon at the cost of an Invocation, and did nothing else. It was widely considered an Invocation tax for bladelocks that still left them worse than blastlocks. In UA7, it now also grants the Warlock their pact weapon’s Mastery ability and a third attack once they reach 11th level. It may be a bit overturned in its current form, but personally, I think it’s fine. It doesn’t allow bladelocks to do anything blastlocks couldn’t already do since 2014. And I can’t help but notice that the people suddenly complaining about this are exactly the same people who up until Treantmonk’s video were complaining that the Warlock sucks because it doesn’t get enough spell slots.

 

[Scribe]

OK yeah I get it, I think.

It seems off, that not only does one get 3 attacks it's...to keep up with the Joneses in its own class?

And yeah, the limited slots thing, but that was always balanced by the short rest refresh.

3 attacks, 9th rank, and the best blaster cantrip seems a bit much.

 

[Charlaquin]

3 attacks, 9th rank, and the best blaster cantrip seems a bit much.

Again though, that’s not actually a new thing for Warlocks. It sounds bad when you phrase it that way, because that phrasing (I suspect intentionally) brushes the warlock’s unique design structure that makes those things fair on it under the rug.

 

[Charlaquin]

And yeah, the limited slots thing, but that was always balanced by the short rest refresh.

It still is. Mystic Arcanum still works exactly like it does in the 2014 PHB.

 

[Mistwell]

It may be a bit overturned in its current form, but personally, I think it’s fine. It doesn’t allow bladelocks to do anything blastlocks couldn’t already do since 2014.

Except, yah know, a whole lot more damage. Who the heck was calling for bladelocks to get three melee attacks AND the best blast cantrip AND up to 9th level spells all at once?

And I can’t help but notice that the people suddenly complaining about this are exactly the same people who up until Treantmonk’s video were complaining that the Warlock sucks because it doesn’t get enough spell slots.

No, it's not. I never said they suck or needed more spell slots. I said I didn't like their short rest dependency. I never wanted them out-damaging fighters and barbarians and rangers with melee weapons, IN ADDITION TO blasting and casting 9th level spells!

But hey, even you admit the are "a bit overtuned" so I guess progress. A dispute about how overtuned is different than a claim they are fine.

 

[Stalker0]

This would be an easier complaint to take seriously if it wasn’t exactly the opposite of the complaints we were hearing right up until Treantmonk said the new Warlock was OP

If by this you mean "people crunched the numbers on the new warlock and found it OP"....then yes that's exactly what happened.

And that's what always happens. People look at something and goes "wow that's cool". then the math heads crunch the numbers and go "whoa whoa, wait a second, this seems off".... and that's how we find broken things. Some things are obviously so broken when you first look at them you just know they are broken, but most things actually take a little work to find.

In this case, TM found one, and others have backed it up with their own flavors of the math (several of which you can find in this forum). So yeah....allowing the class that gets both spellcasting, heal on attack, highly fast movement, access to all weapon masteries, ability to switch damage types at will, ability to use the social stat to do full damage, and the best DPR in the game is too much.

 

[Mistwell]

Again though, that’s not actually a new thing for Warlocks. It sounds bad when you phrase it that way, because that phrasing (I suspect intentionally) brushes the warlock’s unique design structure that makes those things fair on it under the rug.

Yes, it is bloody new because it was cantrip damage before and not melee weapons! They really are doing a whole heck of a lot more damage than they were before and you keep dancing around that reality and proclaiming it's "mostly" like before.