D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Kinematics]

Foresight works with EB too.

I know, but I was leaving that one alone because it's mainly there to match Treantmonk's baseline.

 

[renbot]

Pact of the Tome no longer shuts out other invocation options, forcing you to be a one-trick pony. And Pact of the Tome is only 1 invocation that you can use to access all 1st level rituals like Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, and Speak With Animals, and can swap them out for other 1st level rituals from any class spell list, every Short Rest.

Isn't spending 1 invocation for all that functionality better than spending 2 or 3 invocations to get Eldritch Sight (Detect Magic), Eyes of the Runekeeper (Comp Lang), and Beast Speech (Speak w/ Animals), and get no swapability? It doesn't seem like it is any more "required" than if you wanted any one of those three other invocations.

Yes, this is a very strong ability that opens the Warlock's adaptability. There are a lot of strong Invocation options to choose from.

Off the cuff compromise:

Invocation: Eldritch Eyes of the Runekeeper
Prereq: Pact of the Tome
Provided you have them as rituals in your Tome, you can cast Detect Magic and Comprehend Languages as an action, ignoring any component requirements. You can cast each of these spells a number of times a day equal to your PB using this invocation; these uses recharge at the end of a Long Rest.

 

[renbot]

Might I suggest you make your Patron... yourself?

OMG I thought that was going to be a link to a joke. Instead it was the best interpretation of chrono-adjacent magic I have seen yet for 5E! And I've been trying since I started running 5E the week it launched.

THANK YOU!!!

 

[niklinna]

OMG I thought that was going to be a link to a joke. Instead it was the best interpretation of chrono-adjacent magic I have seen yet for 5E! And I've been trying since I started running 5E the week it launched.

THANK YOU!!!

Reminds me a bit of The Man Who Folded Himself.

 

[renbot]

Wow, most of you seem to have gotten so lost in the weeds you can't see the garden.

If you have to argue for 3 pages (with math! and graphs!) on whether or not the Bladelock, a subset of an extremely versatile base class, outdamages the Barbarian, a class that literally only deals damage, then I think the argument has been made that the Bladelock is overtuned.

Barbarian: Hah puny warlock! I dealt an average of 2.7 more hps of damage per round than you did!
Warlock: Congrats. Here comes the evil king's army. Good luck turning invisible and teleporting over this lava.
Barbarian: Lavwhat....?

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Off the cuff compromise:

Invocation: Eldritch Eyes of the Runekeeper
Prereq: Pact of the Tome
Provided you have them as rituals in your Tome, you can cast Detect Magic and Comprehend Languages as an action, ignoring any component requirements. You can cast each of these spells a number of times a day equal to your PB using this invocation; these uses recharge at the end of a Long Rest.

Following your lead, I would go farther to make fans of the old ways happy and have the effects always on like the 2014 versions of the invocations.

Invocation: Senses of the Secretseeker
Prereq: Pact of the Tome
Provided you have one of the following rituals in your Tome, you can cast Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, and Speak With Animals as an action, ignoring any component requirements. When cast this way, their durations are permanent and they don't require concentration, however each spell will end if that spell is no longer in the Tome, or if your Tome is no longer on your person.

Basically it is a pick 2 of 4, and you can swap them around as needed. Sounds like good functionality to me!

Are there any other 1st level Rituals that can fit into this functionality as potential options for a similar invocation and still be balanced? Here are all the Level 1 Rituals on DDB:

Alarm
Ceremony
Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Find Familiar
Identify
Illusory Script
Purify Food and Drink
Speak with Animals
Tenser’s Floating Disk (Maybe a Servant Invocation?)
Unseen Servant (Maybe a Servant Invocation?)

 

[Kurotowa]

These changes boost the highest levels for the builds, but lower the overall curve for the Shroud build. Shroud is still above the midline at levels 11+, but not quite as significantly. The non-Shroud build is still comfortably in the midline.

That sounds about right to me. In other words, there's absolutely nothing wrong with UA7 Bladelock. The problem is Spirit Shroud. Which is why my contention has been from the start that history is going to repeat itself, and many DMs will take the stance that pre-2024 player options are only allowed on a case by case basis.

Sure, some stuff is fine. The most recent books, say MotM and on, were obviously made with early versions of the revision in mind. But I promise you, Spirit Shroud is not going to be the only problem child that breaks the math. And I'd much rather have a fixed Bladelock and a banned Spirit Shroud than keep limping along with a deficient Bladelock that's propped up by Spirit Shroud.

 

[Kurotowa]

Also, let's be clear. It's not just the damage that makes Spirit Shroud better. Hex is stuck on one target until it dies and costs a Bonus Action to reapply to a new target. Spirit Shroud just works on every melee attack, with no target limits or action costs. The means no problem if you have to swap targets, no cap if you're cleaving through multiple minions in one turn, and no opportunity cost if you have another use for Bonus Actions like Chain Pact or a magic item.

This imbalance was hidden by Blade Pact being pretty weak and needing to be propped up by super strong supplements like Spirit Shroud and Hexblade. Now that Blade Pact is being brought up to a reasonable state, combining it with those old assists results in an overpowered state. That's why new editions usually wipe the slate clean of old material. You can't fix anything if you have to allow for all the old patch jobs sticking around.

 

[mellored]

That sounds about right to me. In other words, there's absolutely nothing wrong with UA7 Bladelock. The problem is Spirit Shroud

Disagree.

The problem is the 3rd attack. Which multiplies all the damage boosts by 50%.
Including magic weapons. Flame tongue goes from 4d6 to 6d6 for instance.
Enlarge goes from 2d4 to 3d4.
Spirit should goes from 4d8 to 6d8.
Ect...

The solution is to scale Lifedrinker, but not Thirsting Blade.

That can also give you something to look forward to past level 11.
And leaves 3 attacks as a fighter thing.

 

[mellored]

Also for comparison.

Flaming sphere @ 5th will do 17.5, half on a miss.
Spirit Shroud @5th with 2 attacks does 18.
Holy weapon @5th with 2 attacks does 18.
Shadow blade @5th with 2 attacks does 18 (roughly)
Spiritual weapon does 14.

So it's pretty well in line for 2 attacks.