D&D 5E The Sorcerer's Spells OR Do we want another magic class?

[the Jester]

Oh, I agree. There's nothing that needs changing. And there are certainly TONS of subclass archetypes that can be written/reworked in the existing class very easily.

BUT, having not ever liked the Sorcerer or thought the whole "casting mechanic justifies the creation of this other class" thing was total bogus, this thought of a re-approaching and redefining them into something that is actually different and useful appeals to me (and preferably not/no longer called "Sorcerers" since we all know, that's a 7th level MU .

It is, rather, something of a paradigm shift for D&D. But the idea of making them a completely new base-class that can sit as the "most general magic user", I think that opens up a lot of design-space...for the both the existing and creating new mechanics and distinct flavor.

I've always felt that the 'most general magic-user' role is filled by the wizard, as evidenced by their immensely broad spell selection. I don't fancy the notion of a base class that exists just so you can cast even moar variety of spells. I also am pretty set against any new base classes that aren't impossible to approximate using the existing tools (class, subclass, feat and prestige class).

But that's my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

 

[MoonSong]

I've always felt that the 'most general magic-user' role is filled by the wizard, as evidenced by their immensely broad spell selection. I don't fancy the notion of a base class that exists just so you can cast even moar variety of spells. I also am pretty set against any new base classes that aren't impossible to approximate using the existing tools (class, subclass, feat and prestige class).

But that's my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

The wizard might be the most general spellcaster on capabilities, but it is nowhere near being generic. The 3.5 sorcerer was way closer to being the generic spellcaster, "I have magic because...reasons" is more generic than "I studied the law of nature so hard now I can bend nature to my will". A 3.5 sorcerer can be anyhting from a studied spellcaster to a troubled child who thinks her gift is a curse, to someone who can't see the difference between magic and non-magic because it is all second nature to her. It is hard to roleplay someone who has magic but wants to get rid of it to be normal if she still has to keep a spellbook and study it every morning to be magical, you know that is a problem that easily solves itself -just burn the damn book and go back to be a peasant-. And the sorcerer doesn't have the problem of "my character is so smart that optimizinf and minmax is not only not OOC but mandatory."

Just try it, ban the wizard class on 3.5 or 3e, you can still cover the same archetypes with the sorcerer without refluffing. But do the opposite and you just lose every arcane spellcaster out of "superpowered genius bookworm".

 

[the Jester]

The wizard might be the most general spellcaster on capabilities, but it is nowhere near being generic. The 3.5 sorcerer was way closer to being the generic spellcaster, "I have magic because...reasons" is more generic than "I studied the law of nature so hard now I can bend nature to my will".

I'll give you that. But I don't really care for a class that is so generic when we have the wizard and sorcerer already, and I really don't much favor "just because" magic, either. But that's a choice for me, not for everyone.

I'm persuaded that if you feel the need for a super generic caster class that is potentially broader than any of the existing casters- that's what we're talking about, right?- then maybe there's room for such a thing. What I'm not persuaded of is the need for such a thing. If there is a need for such a thing, then a sorcerer subclass should be easy to build that allows an easy fit here- for example, maybe a subclass that lets you add a few thematic spells to the sorcerer list (or rather, to your list of known spells). Basically, I strongly favor any other solution before a generic magic-user base class.

 

[Tony Vargas]

- As an additional consideration, keep in mind that there is no more a true distinction between arcane and divine magic. There is just magic. Different spellcasters have access to different spell lists, but old ideas such as "only divine magic should be able to heal" or "only arcane magic should be able to teleport" are nonsense in 5e. The Bard is already someone with potential access to all magic, so the Sorcerer can be too.

Bards have been healing for quite a long while before 5e, even when they were quite clearly arcane rather than divine, and Clerics have had Word of Recall for even longer, so those particular ideas have been gone a long time. Just because 5e classes share many of the exact same spells in the mechanical sense doesn't mean they're using the exact same magic or are 'samey' in any other sense, it's just that spells that accomplish the same thing can recycle mechanics. Clerics still get their magic from the gods, wizards still get theirs from arcane knowledge, just as has always been the case.

There seemed to b a desire for change in the sorcerer class. However the history of the sorcerer class prevented WOTC from uprooting its mechanics too far from what it once was.

The original Sorcerer was just an alternate casting mechanic, 'spontaneous casting,' as opposed to traditional Vancian (memorization or 'prepped') casting. In 5e, they gave all the advantages of spontaneous casting to Vancian casters, leaving the Sorcerer with nothing but a bit of Dragon blood. The playtest sorcerer was cooler, but in the end they made it, ironically (since the 3.5 sorcerer had issues with it), a meta-magic based class.

So I wonder it there is a desire for yet another magical class which is free from the baggage of prior edition's fluff and crunch.

There's certainly no need for yet another leverage-the-same-spell-list caster, no, but....

No spells. Only flexible non-spell magic features.

This has some potential. Maybe not even all that flexible, but able to improv a bit. What's lacking is a simple magic-using class, simple the way the Champion is simple. Some past takes on the Sorcerer, like 3e 'blasting sorcerer' builds or the Essentials Elemental Sorcerer could be a starting point for something like that.

 

[SkidAce]

My 2cp in a nutshell:

- I wouldn't want any change to the core material, no 5.5 please. Only additions.

- As I said in the other thread, it would be nice if the Sorcerer's thematic concept of "born with magic inside" would be fully embraced, and the class was designed without access to close-form, ready-made "spells" as everybody else, but instead with access to basic powers (such as "illusion", "charm", "fire", "transmutation", "life", "teleportation", "invisibility", "summoning" etc.) and capable of using them to create flexible ad-hoc effect dynamically during the game. Unfortunately this is was too far away from the rules of magic in D&D, so it would be a major design effort, and too few people would be interested to think WotC would ever do that.

- A whole new class would be an addition that doesn't invalidate the core, but it would also compete directly with the core Sorcerer's concept. Instead, I'd be fine with a Sorcerer subclass that might explore the previous concept of flexible raw magic (presumably based on spell points, but not necessarily). But while it would be nice, it's still a fairly significant design effort as a subclass; so it might be to add new ways to represent this raw/basic approach to magical effects through new subclasses that still build on existing mechanics.

- I love the idea of Sorcerers being allowed access to any spells beyond their list. This is indeed one way to represent the fact that raw magic is inside them, and raw magic is not limited in any way.

- As an additional consideration, keep in mind that there is no more a true distinction between arcane and divine magic. There is just magic. Different spellcasters have access to different spell lists, but old ideas such as "only divine magic should be able to heal" or "only arcane magic should be able to teleport" are nonsense in 5e. The Bard is already someone with potential access to all magic, so the Sorcerer can be too.

- All these considerations do not mean that every Sorcerer should have access to every spell list. We don't need to invalidate anything core. We can simply design new Sorcerer subclasses that (1) get access to spells from other lists, just like Cleric and Druid subclasses already do, or like the Favored Soul; and (2) get additional mechanics to represent a more raw manipulation of magic, for example additional uses of the spell points pool.

- We could also always just design as many additional metamagic effects as possible, additional Sorcerer-only spells, and new Sorcerer-only feats. All these do not invalidate the PHB material, they are simply additive.

I agree with all of this except point five.

While it is true there is no hard distinction (bard being the example) I still feel like there is a difference, its just that the bard can cast both kinds.

Thanks for a insightful post.

 

[Minigiant]

I'll give you that. But I don't really care for a class that is so generic when we have the wizard and sorcerer already, and I really don't much favor "just because" magic, either. But that's a choice for me, not for everyone.

I'm persuaded that if you feel the need for a super generic caster class that is potentially broader than any of the existing casters- that's what we're talking about, right?- then maybe there's room for such a thing. What I'm not persuaded of is the need for such a thing. If there is a need for such a thing, then a sorcerer subclass should be easy to build that allows an easy fit here- for example, maybe a subclass that lets you add a few thematic spells to the sorcerer list (or rather, to your list of known spells). Basically, I strongly favor any other solution before a generic magic-user base class.

Indeed more sorcerer subclasses with less demanding flavor in the origin would fix. Due to the dramatic culling of the sorcerer spell lost I see the need for it greater than even the wild mage or storm sorcerer.

As for another genetic nonspellcasting magic-user, there seems to be a hole open for the simple generic mage. That role was the warlock even with its nongood fluff. Since warlocks are more complex and are tied more to supernatural patrons and ancestors, the hole is open again.

 

[steeldragons]

I've always felt that the 'most general magic-user' role is filled by the wizard, as evidenced by their immensely broad spell selection.

Well, right. That would be the paradigm shift. Instead of "Wizard" being the base magic-using guy, the <renamed/replacement Sorcerer> becomes that base...with potential access to the wizard/arcane spell list, the cleric/divine spell list, the druid/nature spell list, whatever else the guy adds/includes. So you can still have your divinely flavored Favored Soul "Sorcerer", your "Storm Sorcerer" that has all/any arcane and druidic spells that involve weather, your dragon sorcerer's whose magic all relates to their parentage's element/abilities, elemental sorcerers, shadowcaster sorcerers, etc..., etc...

I don't fancy the notion of a base class that exists just so you can cast even moar variety of spells.

Well, that's what I'm saying...they wouldn't be getting "moar variety of spells." They'd be getting a specific list, according to their type. Think of it as, instead of adding "bonus spells" to the existing sorcerer's spells, your sorcerer is getting access to ONLY the "bonus"(themed/flavor) spells. Which, then, they can play with in terms of metamagic, doing different things with them via spell points, and a bit of utility stuff built into features, cast innately/without "study" [though I have no problem with the story/fluff of studying/books in my magic and see them rather as basic/necessary as well as historically, mythologically, and literarily relevant], and so on like that.

The reason we, of course, think of the "Wizard" as the base/general magic-user is because that's what they are/have always been.

Magic-User --> Mage --> Wizard/Sorcerer --> add in Warlock -->Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock.

Since the Wizard used the spellbook/memorization mechanics that we know & love, that is the obvious successor/extension to what a "D&D Magic-user" was. That is the paradigm shift that would need to be overcome...and much easier to do without the name and preconceived baggage of the "Sorcerer" class.

What we think of as "Sorcerer", with their spell points and metamagic and innate magic to weave into existence to various effects becomes the base "Magic-User [Caster]." The Magic worker who doesn't have to do any work or adhere to any specific flavor/story/casting mechanic.

Then, as the original idea was put forth, "Magic-User/Caster + study/spellbooks/researched preparation" flavor & mechanics remains what we know and love as "Wizard."
MU/Caster + worships the gods/religious/support style magic flavor & mechanics remains what we know and love as "Cleric."
MU/Caster + worships nature/shapeshifting/elemental magic flavor & mechanics remains what we know and love as "Druid."
MU/Caster + extradimensional non-god patron/invocations/short recharge magic flavor & mechanics remains what we know and...like somewhat...as "Warlock."
MU/Caster + primordial music-magic/charm/inspiration/primordial music-magic flavor & mechanics remains what we know and...don't mind so much but prefer with druidic spells...as "Bard."

It's not so much changing anything about the classes we have, other than re-envisioning and [gods help me] re-"branding" the Sorcerer, but changing their position (and making them a legitimate class/giving them a reason to exist in the process) in a hypothetical "class tree/order of things" sort of way.

I also am pretty set against any new base classes that aren't impossible to approximate using the existing tools (class, subclass, feat and prestige class).

But that's my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

Yeah, I'm with ya on that too. This could certainly be done via sub-class, as I said. You just have to homebrew out the base class spellcasting and replace it with the flavor spells of choice.

For myself, since I don't use the existing sorcerer anyway, rewriting the whole thing for homebrew use is no real big.

So then, you could have <Renamed Sorcerer/Innate Caster> base class...and then the same kind of thematic origin subclass break up we have now...just a lot more granular in flavor (en par with the Clerics/Wizards we have).

You could go the opposite way, and try to follow the kind of thing they've sort of based the existing Sorcerer class around. Namely, instead of having to have a "Draconic/Elemental/Divine/Chaos/Storm/etc...etc..." origin, you'd go more generic and could have subclasses that are simply broad strokes: "Ancestral" for your sorcerers that have magic in their blood because of lineage, "Circumstantial [Fated is probably a better name]" for got splashed with chaos goo, absorbed gamma radiation, hand picked by some deity/natural battery for divine energies, "Savant" for your parents were making whoopey during a lightning storm, the person -or maybe the very magic of the world- has an affinity for a specific elemental type or specific spell school (illusion only, transmutation only, etc...), etc...

 

[SkidAce]

I am a bit upset there isn't a College of Death for bards for my troupe of ninja musician drow. Don't get me started on rangers and barbarians.

But the generic sorcerer is a shock not existing. But it wouldn't have to be too light.

Glowing eyes with magical sight
Visible magic aura to defend against magical creatures.
The standard zappity zap beam of energy
Short gusts of infused energy.

Oooohhh.. A sorcerer with nothing but light and radiance spells....

/runs off to add new lore to world...

 

[SkidAce]

Well, right. That would be the paradigm shift. Instead of "Wizard" being the base magic-using guy, the <renamed/replacement Sorcerer> becomes that base...with potential access to the wizard/arcane spell list, the cleric/divine spell list, the druid/nature spell list, whatever else the guy adds/includes. So you can still have your divinely flavored Favored Soul "Sorcerer", your "Storm Sorcerer" that has all/any arcane and druidic spells that involve weather, your dragon sorcerer's whose magic all relates to their parentage's element/abilities, elemental sorcerers, shadowcaster sorcerers, etc..., etc...



Well, that's what I'm saying...they wouldn't be getting "moar variety of spells." They'd be getting a specific list, according to their type. Think of it as, instead of adding "bonus spells" to the existing sorcerer's spells, your sorcerer is getting access to ONLY the "bonus"(themed/flavor) spells. Which, then, they can play with in terms of metamagic, doing different things with them via spell points, and a bit of utility stuff built into features, cast innately/without "study" [though I have no problem with the story/fluff of studying/books in my magic and see them rather as basic/necessary as well as historically, mythologically, and literarily relevant], and so on like that.

Tihsa is exactly what I was trying to imply with my examples upthread, in better words and more detail.

Thanks!

 

[steeldragons]

Tihsa is exactly what I was trying to imply with my examples upthread, in better words and more detail.

Thanks!

No problem.

But stop calling me Tihsa. ;P